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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,661 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1590 Posts |
Not the best in the World, but I pulled this from circulation back in the 60s. I like it!   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
can you get a better pic of the rev die break? looks very similar to VAM 5A... |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
The photo on top is too small compared to the legal size of the 1 below it. This is like fishing you have to through the little one back  Nice coin and a great find |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1590 Posts |
Picky picky picky. Lol. Sorry did not know till I uploaded them that it would turn out that way. This one should be way better.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
I was just saying that your coin is a young one and Broken as well you could send it to me and I will return it to the wild! Not! very nice coin |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
5A is a dramatic break, and great fun to find.
I'm forced to wonder what it was with the design, that so many dies would fracture in this specific area.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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Just think cookies. Now I'm hungry.  But, not rim-to-rim breaks - big chunks only out of the wing area. Very few EDS examples - it seems like they spring up fully-formed as missing chunks rather than expanded cracks. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5613 Posts |
I can honestly say, I love a good die break,I mean, REALLY love them, and this one is a wonderful LDS example and would love to see the progression, from the first crack to this and beyond,Meaning tracking and seeing all the coins this die has produced,THAT would be some sight. Till the Obverse die was pulled from service,This is exactly my center of interest in die failure progression, Thanks for sharing......
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
There are two breaks like this one I can think of off the top of my head, the other being the 1923 VAM-1E (if I recall), and a few smaller but similar wing "breaks." None really resemble die cracks, or the things which die cracks evolve into. They're more like chunks taken out of the die, all at once.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
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None really resemble die cracks, or the things which die cracks evolve into. Heh, you're not thinking cookies. The most probable reason that they do not resemble the common stress cracks that you are more familiar with is because, to you, they more likely resemble a finite ravine in the center of the die, right? Okay, forget about the cookies....too complex a notion unless you have baked (from scratch) a whole lot of them... Think instead of metal rupture caused by fluctuations in heat application (heat flux) during annealing.....the die was not heated long enough to warm the center to the outer surface temperatures, ....temperature is varied to adjust an oven that was either too cool or too hot to begin with....(you do not adjust the oven temperature of the cookies halfway through the baking, or you will see similar effects....ask your wife).. ....this heat flux results in weakness in the die center after cooling, and is subsequently exploited at first (or early) strike. (Just a wild guess)...  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Your cookie analogy got me thinking about how a cookie broke when you bend it - at least, for those who eat cookies in more than one bite, and I'm not on that list - it breaks down the center, generally. That's the analogy I saw.
When I was married (I'm single these days), I was banned from the cookie-making process because I generally ate the dough before it even got into the oven.
All seriousness aside, your point is (as usual) instinctively sensible. I am therefore led down the path of considering what changes had been made in the annealing process - the Mint went straight from Morgan to Peace production, and aside working the dies to death they certainly seemed to have a handle on annealing Morgan dies because literally none showed such sudden, catastrophic failure in the center - or what might have been different about the Peace design to cause such downstream ramifications.
Which leads to the meta-point - "to what extent does the specific design of a die affect the 'perfect' annealing process?" I'm thinking that may have been more relevant than it's given credit for.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I have to admit that the die/cookie analogy is a very poor one, but since I started pondering dies not so long ago, I find myself making the comparison every time I bake cookies....I can manipulate the outcome by varying consistency of the mix, oven temperatures, and baking time.....I can predict the outcome of brittle edges, soft centers, or evenly baked products.
With dies, I might imagine that the preparation of the steel itself relies heavily on the grade (fineness and purity) of the ore grain.
Annealing is an aspect of die preparation that could be highly variable, not only in result of steel quality available, but in kiln temperatures and duration of heat application, number of dies annealed at one time, cooling techniques, etc, etc.
Since the die is annealed between each blow of the hub, the design, especially that portion of the highest relief (typically the center), may be subject to softness, while the periphery would be at greatest risk of brittleness.
As far as the difference between the typical peripheral cracks of the '21 Morgans to the central breaks of the Peace a few years later, I really could not hazard even a guess beyond the possibility of a changing of the guard by those running the annealing processes....different folks have different ideas, and might form their own personal proceedures, maybe?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
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I can honestly say, I love a good die break,I mean, REALLY love them Yeah, me too Mike....it is hard for me to imagine that there might be folks who would feel otherwise....but there are, and surprisingly, quite a few. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Are you struck, as I, by the remote chance we ever have of deciding these issues based upon proof? Too much was up to the individual whimsy of whatever person happened to be in charge of whatever process, be it the production of the steel or the annealing of the dies. The points I wish to define are likely impossible, ever, for lack of information. Golly, I want a hot chocolate chip cookie. I also want to be able to postulate a baseline of steel and die preparation, so I can factor in design differences and approach a theory as to why what broke, where. I'm gonna go hungry tonight, either way.  |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Yes, I am more than struck, I am mutilated by that thought Dave....Without the physical evidence of the dies, belief is the best that can realistically be attained by looking at the bones that remain.....Speculation based on logic and physical principles of how things work leads us to those beliefs.....although often, our beliefs are based on nothing more than the rhetoric of those we look upon as experts for reasons that are unclear, but accepted anyway. Every year, textbooks are revised (due to the changing of the facts as we know them based on proof as we see it)....Science is not really a science, nor is paleontology or astronomy, etc, etc. Our thoughts and perceptions shift continually based on the realities of others. Sorry Dave, I was unaware of your marital status (maybe you are not so sorry though)....nevertheless, it was not my intent to cause you a gastronomic meltdown. edited to add: By the way.... that is one very impressive coin jmkendall, I really do like it very much. Edited by zeewool
12/13/2010 11:26 pm
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,661 |
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Posted 12/13/2010 3:52 pm
