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 Replies: 23 / Views: 3,942 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I am constantly searching ebay for people selling Counterfeit Mexican coins and in the process I have located a fellow who has posted pictures of a large inventory of Counterfeit offerings that are WELL made and claim to be 90% silver. The seller's ebay name is xboxping2009 so you can look him up later. He is from China and has only been on ebay since 2009. He posts sporadically and does identify his material as fake. But he has made multiple sales to several people. I always wonder if there is a legitimate reason for the purchase of multiple copies of one forgers material? Here is a link to a very nice looking Portrait 8R that I have would have some difficulty detecting if it were to be posted individually as real. And if it did not have a flagrant error. http://cgi.ebay.com/Guatemala-1798-...280609875156 If you click on his other auctions you can see his inventory. As I am writing this he has 140 posted. These are worth looking at IN DETAIL so that you can see what will be appearing on ebay shortly. The coins are all pictured with the word REPLICA superimposed someplace on the coin, however this word appears clearly to have been photo shopped onto the pictures. I would give odds that the coins will arrive without the word in place. These coins look good enough to pass most photo verification tests I am aware of based on manufacturing flaws. Unless you look at them in close sequence it would be difficult to notice that the toning is too similar on all the coins to be real. Also unless you are an expert in each series it is difficult to tell which dies have been muled, altered or re-dated. Most average collectors would miss the error I see on the 1798 Guatemala 8R. Every collector of foreign crowns should be looking at (and copying - a violation of ebay rules admittedly but fir me it is self defense) pictures of admitted modern forgeries so that they can AVOID the same coins when they are resold ONE AT A TIME by unscrupulous US merchants (or thieves from any other country) whose motivation is to make a fast buck. Each coin is offered for $69.99 which is far too much for me. (But I will admit I would love to see one in person). The seller indicates he has multiple copies too. If as stated these Spanish American 8R copies are 90% silver, they contain just over $20 worth of silver so I see them as $25-$35 fakes. (I give $5-$15 for production depending on the method used - (these are transfer dies of some sort). Prepare yourself for the onslaught of secondary sales when these same coins will be posted on ebay with no warning and with a fabricated story about how "my grandfather had these in his safe" or "I found these in an old estate" or "a fairy gave me these". |
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Hello swamperbob, Yep, I first noticed this seller yesterday when I saw a 1857 Pi 8 Reales on one of his listings. It truly is frightening to see how well they are starting to make them and that they can't be identified as fake just by looking at the picture. It is just a matter of time before other sellers start putting them up as real. Hopefully once in hand they can be successfully identified as counterfeit, the only problem with that is that you would have already paid for it. http://cgi.ebay.com/Mexico-1857-PiM...280609881664I also have started copying pictures to keep as a reference for all the online fakes I run into because I have a feeling they WILL show up sooner or later just like you say. |
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
If those counterfeit coins posted by that person looks the same in actual, I guess stopping in buying silver 8 reales to an ebay seller that you do not know will be my only remaining option or better yet, shift to gold coins... or maybe slabbed ones? Forgers seems to get better nowadays  |
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Pillar of the Community
Luxembourg
588 Posts |
The two French 5 francs are still relatively poor copies but I have archived those pictures.
Thanks for informing!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
maudry I was just wondering in reference to the 1852BB 5 Franc of Louis Napoleon ( 280609873671) what in particular on the photo makes it a poor copy? When I looked at that one I actually found it to be far more convincing than many of the others. The color looked good - not streaky and it does not use the typical black goop. The wear on both sides was equivalent and the nicks look real. It does look cleaned as many originals are. I was also particularly taken in by the large rim bump near the F in FRANCAISE on the reverse and the smaller nick near the B in Bonaparte. So other than the issue being rather rare and therefore suspect as a fake and of course other than the origin - what's wrong with the coin itself? I am not being facetious at all I am trying to pick up clues. Pandesalapi The option of shifting to gold coins only makes the risk higher. Gold coins have been very well copied for many years now. Buying slabbed coins is also no absolute guarantee either. The Chinese have been forging PCGS slabs for some time now. Buy from someone you trust. RealPeso The 1856 Pi 8R was the one that caught my attention first. It is convincing but not perfect. The doubling at the mint mark and date would make me suspicious. I also thought the features were muted by the transfer process and the color was poor. But for the average Joe - it would look far too good.
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
Quote:
The option of shifting to gold coins only makes the risk higher. Gold coins have been very well copied for many years now. Buying slabbed coins is also no absolute guarantee either. The Chinese have been forging PCGS slabs for some time now. Buy from someone you trust. I guess that's well said, we have to be vigil and familiarize more on the coin before buying/acquiring any. I haven't come across on forged slabs, I wonder how does it looks in actual. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Pandesalapi I have only seen three of these slabbed counterfeits recently. In those three cases, I could not tell that the holders were forgeries. The serial numbers also matched REAL coins but the grades were off. The coins in the holders were poor copies VF or EF at best but the holders all PCGS were MS grades. The three coins were all base metal with ZERO silver. Just a couple days ago someone sent me a photo (taken from ebay) of an 1873 S Trade dollar that was apparently a similar forgery - PCGS graded at MS63. The auction was terminated by ebay. So they are definitely out there.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Swamperbob I could not agree more, everyone needs to become knowledgable about the current plethura of fakes coming on the market, both slabbed and raw. Here is an ebay website that should scare the daylights out of anyone who buys coins on ebay thinking it is a safe marketplace. http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinfo.../5277369124/page after page of fake coins and fake slabs |
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Pillar of the Community
Luxembourg
588 Posts |
Swamperbob the 5 francs coin uses the privy marks of the Paris mint.
I don't also like the mint mark.
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
510 Posts |
The design of the three Norwegian counterfeits on offer are more than two years old and easily spotted for someone who has seen a few of them. At first these were passed off as real, later the sellers admitted they were copies. Tests done in Norway has shown what metals were used, and it was very little silver in them. Someone could conceivably have reused the same production method with better metal but from appearances I would say that is very unlikely.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
jfransch The site is fantastic and should prove to ANYONE that Chinese forgeries are a problem.
maudry Thank you for telling us. I had not thought of the privy marks, but great clue to check. The privy marks could be altered but until they are it makes for a very easy way to spot the forgery. Rather similar to the 1798 Guatemala which has a very similar fairly easy to correct error. I am surprised no one has asked what the error is.
Litotes When dealing with forgers - why would anyone believe that they were actually using real silver? Their reputation is not at stake. But there are some counterfeits that are struck in silver. In a photo it is impossible to tell.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
 The "copy" label is not on the coins they offer. They're obviously meant to look like circulated coins and not copies, and I suspect they're intended for resale. This is going to be a HUGE problem in the future for world coins. Ultimately, collectors will have to specialize and scrutinize everything. Slabbing does not substitute for personal knowledge. Edited by DVCollector
12/31/2010 4:42 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Quote: The "copy" label is not on the coins they offer I thought the one swamperbob had posted the link to may have actually has the word stamped into the coin itself because the way the "A" looked kind of deformed but after looking at his other auctions they all have the same shape so I agree that they lookd to be added to the pictures instead of the coin |
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
510 Posts |
Quote:
I thought the one swamperbob had posted the link to may have actually has the word stamped into the coin itself because the way the "A" looked kind of deformed but after looking at his other auctions they all have the same shape so I agree that they lookd to be added to the pictures instead of the coin
Known Chinese forgers like jinghuashei will place stamp a coin with "COPY" only if the customer specifies he wants it. If he does not, the coin will arrive without. It would not surprise me if this new seller had the same practice, as he has many of the same forgeries. |
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
510 Posts |
Quote:
Litotes When dealing with forgers - why would anyone believe that they were actually using real silver? Their reputation is not at stake. But there are some counterfeits that are struck in silver. In a photo it is impossible to tell.
As yet, noone has documented a Norwegian modern forgery struck in silver. They may of course arrive eventually. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Litotes In my quest for counterfeit 8Rs I have come across many fakes which have silver contents in the 70% to 92% range. I routinely do SG tests of all 8Rs that pass through me for authentication or appraisal.
But there are TWO different types of these silver forgeries. The older ones made from 1870 to 1930 and the newer ones which appeared on the scene after 1980.
I have been hunting for the earlier type since I first became aware of their existence in 1960. Over the years, I have literally seen a thousand of them but most collectors will not accept the fact that they are forgeries solely based on the way the edge was applied. The majority were edged with a system that produced a SINGLE EDGE OVERLAP. There are a few other types that can be spotted by the edge pattern - the squared circle pattern being one or the dot inside the circle being another.
I can usually distinguish between the two types by surface textures and the actual edge application BUT THEY ARE GETTING MORE DIFFICULT TO DIVIDE.
These same coins - because they contain about the correct silver content are, as noted above, often treated as REAL by dealers and collectors alike. The earlier group actually were struck on screw presses using hand made dies (like the originals) so they do not look like the modern Chinese transfer copy surfaces (SO FAR). Routinely, I pick them out of normal dealer inventories at coin shows. If I look at say 20-50 Portrait 8Rs in a day, I typically spot one or two of the fakes mixed in. I usually can convince half of the dealers they are fakes.
But as I said I have seen many NEW CHINESE SILVER FORGERIES as well. I estimate I have 30 in my collection right now.
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Replies: 23 / Views: 3,942 |
Posted 12/30/2010 4:35 pm
