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Swedish, 1 Ã-re KM, With 2 Dates.

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Valued Member

Sweden
159 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2011  06:32 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Tomten to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello there!

Although I know that there might not be that many experts on Swedish coins on this forum, I'd like to show this coin and maybe get some more information about it. My catalog says this is probably a 1720 1 Ã-re KM from Avesta in Sweden, it says that these coins almost always has a shadow-brockage-incuse-double die strike-whatever-it's-called. (I don't know the correct term, help me please.)

I have around 20 of these, however only this one that actually has two dates. The date should be 1720 on the obverse with the three crowns. However this one has a clearer 1718 on the reverse.

Swedish,-1-Öre-KM,-With-2-Dates.
Swedish,-1-Öre-KM,-With-2-Dates.

Anyone seen anything like this or know anything about it?

Thanks!
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2011  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's interesting--it looks like two dates! I only have a few Swedish coins from this period--And my catalog doesn't go this early. I hope somebody here has more information.
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alganbagerap's Avatar
United Kingdom
2490 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2011  2:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add alganbagerap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Stranger and stranger. Krause doesn't list any 1 ore for 1718, neither SM nor KM.
Valued Member
Sweden
159 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2011  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tomten to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's because it's a 1720 1 Ã-re, minted in Avesta in Sweden. It says in my Swedish 950-2000 catalog that these coins were weakly "shadow-minted" because of overstrike. The date 1718 on the reverse shouldn't be there at all. None of these Ã-re's has got the date on that side of the coin. Only under the three crowns on the obverse. There was 1719 and 1720's made in two places in Sweden, Stockholm and Avesta. The ones from Stockholm with these 2 dates has, 17 varieties. It only mentions 1720 from Avesta, and that it has 2 varieties, different edges.

It also says that these coins from Avesta (trying to translate); "are often called "Lindgren" (probably the first one to describe them). However it should be called "Wikman", the one who designed them in Avesta. The technique that were used when over-striking on other coins are very different between Stockholm and Avesta. Avesta-minted coins almost always come "double-punched", which means they have weak shadow-strike = overstrike. This should prove that the coins were minted in Avesta."

I do find it odd though, because it's a very good 1718-strike and noone of my other overstrike coins from 1720 from Avesta has got anything that even looks like a 2nd date.
Edited by Tomten
01/03/2011 4:39 pm
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16850 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2011  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the terms you're translating as "shadow strike" and "double-punched" imply that the coin is overstruck on an earlier coin. The "1718" date is a remnant of the design of that earlier coin, or undertype.

In 1718 Sweden issued a series of "emergency" copper dalers, with depictions of the planetary deitites on the obverse. If you look above and to the right of the crown on your coin, there's a remnant of the letters "R?VS" visible; the second letter could be either the top of an I or an N. That's enough to ID the undertype coin as either the "SATVRNVS" or "MERCVRIVS" types (KM 358 or 361).
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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alganbagerap's Avatar
United Kingdom
2490 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2011  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add alganbagerap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Holy %*/""! Sap.
How do you do that?
Valued Member
Sweden
159 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2011  05:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tomten to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aye overstruck on another coin, I edited my post actually. Thanks for correcting my terms.

Yes that's what I said in the first post actually, or were trying to say. However I have ~20-25 of these coins, and none of them have anything near of having their date of the earlier coin visible. This one has a clearer 1718-date than the 1720-date even. I found it quite funny to see actually. The fact that it lined up quite neatly below the shield is awesome as well.

Oh, and I don't think it's MERCVRIVS, it's SATVRNVS. Saturnus has a dot after 1718, as this coin does. Mercurius doesn't got that dot after the date. (At least my 3 copies of saturnus got the dot, and my 3 copies of the mercurius lacks the dot.)

Thanks for being so observant and actually ID:ing the coin it was struck on!

Do you think this coin would be more rare than these other which lacks the earlier date visible?
Edited by Tomten
01/04/2011 05:30 am
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16850 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2011  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In other coin series that are usually found struck over other coin types, such as Bank of England dollars, Brazilian 960 reis and Russian coppers, if the original underlying coin is identifiable, then it adds value. The foruitous "right way up" alignment of this coin is also pleasing to the eye and would add value as well, I think.

Quote:
Sap. How do you do that?

Elementary, my dear alganbagerap. To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when shown something that should be impossible, then an impossible explanation for it must be true. In this case, we have a coin with two different dates, something which is naturally impossible for a normal coin to have. The possible explanations for this are, in rough order of probablility:
- The owner of the coin has accidentally mixed up pictures from two different coins. This can be ruled out, since the owner of the coin in this case has started a thread specifically to discuss the two-date phenomenon.
- The coin is a "trick coin", made by splicing two different coins together. This can also be ruled out, because the design which we see on the side with the 1718 date was never actually struck for any coin I could find in 1718.
- The coin is a counterfeit.
- The coin is overstruck and the older date is a relic of the coin's prior life. This is only possible in a few circumstances, but the OP's references to "shadow strikes" made me think that this series was indeed a prime candidate for these features to appear. It only remained to find the likely candidagte for the undertype, something which Tomten has now adequately done.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Eurocoin's Avatar
Finland
294 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2013  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eurocoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are these overstruckt Görz emergency coins considered as subtypes of actual 1 öre type? If so, what is the cataloging system/coinbook for these?
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Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2013  09:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sweden is known to overstrike copper coins during 1700s. I don't have a catalog for these type of coins but it would be an interesting field to explore what kind of coins were overstruck.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2013  09:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SAP - you dug deeper than anyone else but from my knowledge of overstrikes with U.S. Colonials and overstrikes here in a screwpress an overstrike will usually take out most of the undertype - it appears much undertype remains here? ... ironically these ore's are CHEAP. Its unusual I can buy like a 1667 1/6 or 1/4 ore for around $20-25 in near UNC! Do people in Sweden collect coins? Back to this ... I notice some ore's also exist way off-center - is this a situation that maybe one side was overstruck way O/C or not at all ... seems much undertpe remains ... I only own KM ... and have not viewed the 1 Ore pics in this date range and discussion ... just talking ...
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ChrisHagen's Avatar
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2013  02:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ChrisHagen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey, I had to chime in!

I just got a coin with the 1720 date. Right UNDER that date, on the same side, is the 1718 date.

Here is the twist! On the other side, above the "OR", there is a THIRD DATE of "27". It seems that this coin has been overstruck and overstruck and overstruck ever since 1627. I can't find any other explanation.

I was going to click "Submit Reply", but nah. I'm going to take some pictures of the coin real quick.
Here we go: http://imgur.com/a/6HXtu
Here's an imgur album, enjoy!
Edited by ChrisHagen
06/15/2013 02:18 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2013  04:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is more than possible to have a coin that's double overstruck which means that there's three dates. What I am trying to look for is a coin with four dates which does exist but is extremely rare.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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ChrisHagen's Avatar
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2013  12:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ChrisHagen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wouldn't be surprised if my coin had a fourth date somewhere. But it's gonna have to be very, very faint. Feel free to check out the pictures and see if you can spot any more dates!
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