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 Replies: 17 / Views: 2,725 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
So I just happened to be in the mall today. I decided to stop into a shop just because it was there. The owner happened to be there. Somehow I got onto the topic of Lincoln Die varieties. He looked at me like he had never heard of anything as bizarre as someone collecting these. He seemed sincere in his ignorance. My question is how evil would it be to search his modern lincoln tubes,he has several hundred, and look for wams,cams,ddrs,ddos etc..and what to do if say a 92d cam is there....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
Sounds really weird that he hasn't at least heard of vareities and their collectors. But, a lot of dealers just don't care. They bought the coin for x, they marked it up by x, and they call it a day.
My local dealer knows and doesn't care that I look for varieties, he just doesn't want me to brag about it. But, I'm afraid I'd probably point out if he had something that was becoming borderline theft on my part. Kind of gut feel as to when it's cherrypicking and when it's blatant robbery.
I'd cross the 92D CAM bridge when I came to it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4897 Posts |
I totaly agree Scooby. I was just dumbfounded that he really seemed to have no idea. He told me he personally collects Morgans. So I asked him if he was a Vammer and he basically told me no because he thinks the little differences don't interest him. Maybe he truly doesn't care about varieties. I was just using the 92 cam as an extreme example. No fiber of my being would let me walk out of his shop with something like that for 25 cents. Lol
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Valued Member
United States
212 Posts |
To be honest, I think the ethical thing to do would be to search his modern Lincoln tubes and try to find what you collect. Just kidding. Ummm, no, I really don't see anything wrong with searching the tubes. Are you being dishonest? I don't think so. It's his business. He's running it. He's a coin dealer, and he doesn't know about varieties? I guess you could advise him, but I've made it a habit of telling different merchants "How they should run their business", and everytime I do, I get in trouble for it. Shop owner gets offended. So what do you do? Your question is really going to open up a can of worms I know. How many coin collectors go to garage sales, estate sales and auctions and get great deals? Are we supposed to tell the garage sale seller, the estate sale seller and the auctioneer the true value of something? Anyway, that's what I would do.
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Valued Member
Guatemala
357 Posts |
Search the tubes, and if the results are worth the effort, there's nothing wrong in giving the dealer a little gift, as a token of your appreciation for his allowing you to do so. It doesn't have to be something big... Maybe a lesser known Morgan reference book from Amazon or Abebooks. Or even something as simple as a print for the wall. Just don't search pennies, and give him a Lincoln reference book... :) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
There is nothing at all unethical about using your knowledge to gain from someone who is a professional in the field on which your knowledge is based.
If I were an antique motorcycle dealer and had an old Indian on my lot and had it priced at $10,000, and you noticed the serial number meant it was from the first year of manufacture and it was actually worth twice that, you'd be a fool not to buy it from me for the price marked - and I guarantee my 20% or more would already be in the $10,000 price tag.
What would be unethical is for you to try talking me down on the price before taking advantage of me.
I buy coins from dealers all the time that are worth far more than the price marked - it's my business. I do not - and have NEVER - tried talking them down on their price. I pay the full price marked.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts |
As said in another post some dealers don't collect coins/currency. One of my local dealers doesn't collect at all, even his daughter, who works the shop part time between teaching doesn't collect. Another local dealer only collects Bust halves. I tried to talk to them both about Vams/varieties & how some carry a higher premium. Both told me basically the same thing "That they have no interest in it. The price is the price. So, with that being said, It would be up to you & your conscience. Personally, if I were to come across a high priced variety/Vam I would offer a little more. If it were refused, at least my conscience would be clear & I would be able to sleep at night ( I like a good nights sleep). I believe in Karma as many of you know. And, I like Good Karma. Just always remember "What you do today, you'll have to sleep w/ tonight."
Edited by chris12018
03/02/2011 06:58 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
I agree with C.D. and also practice the same.
Interesting thought though here. If you are allowed to cherry pick
in the shop before you buy and find a decent coin you may act differently then if you actually bought a bunch of coins first then
found a decent one when you got them home. I would bet that most would not feel at all guilty then. Actually the only time I would feel torn
(and it had happened a few times) is when I had done an appraisal of a large lot and then bought them. Then found a real monster/keeper later.
That bothered me. I called the original owners back and told them. Both were very happy and commended me for my ethics/honesty. One accepted a premium that I offered and the other said all is fine. All in all one has to go with their gut/heart on his. If your a decent joe or sally :} you will do what you feel is right. And remember, you have all heard it before a million times, but really think about it.
"What goes around comes around"
And it does. Believe me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2602 Posts |
I agree with CC, if you spend the time and energy learning about varieties and you've done your homework, there is nothing wrong with using that knowledge. You cannot be an expert in all areas of coins, even the best coin dealers can't or don't have time to search every single coin.
I also don't have a problem hanggling with a dealer over the price marked- in fact I do it all the time for regular coins. For a cherrypicked coin I pay the price marked and if the dealer wants to mark it lower I let him or her do it.
My feeling is that if you learn a lot about varieties you will reap the benefits of your long hours of reading and searching coin by coin. I think most dealers don't care- they need to move material and make a profit and if the stuff sits in their vault, store, showcases or binders, it's not moving. Their profit is already built into their price, I'm sure.
Edited by mycrob
03/02/2011 12:23 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
I kinda look at it this way - and I also need to clear up something I said... If - just IF - I were to start setting up at shows because a huge collection landed in my lap (and I was bored to tears), and that collection happened to have a ton of Morgan dollars in it (the HORROR), I would not bother looking up all of the possible VAMs on them because frankly I dislike Morgan dollars almost as much as I dislike having a sharp stick in my eye. I would certainly grade the coins and price them accordingly, but that is as far as I would go with them. If you, the VAM extraordinaire, came to my table and cherrypicked some VAM worth ten times what I priced the coin at...more power to you! I couldn't care less. But it WOULD absolutely insense me if you KNEW the coin was really valuable and tried talking me down on the price. End of story. Now...with regard to rifling through some dealer's stuff... If you're the customer on the customer side of the table and the dealer lets you pick through his stuff, that's one thing - same rules as above apply...but...if the dealer lets you into the stock room to sit and go through unpriced back stock, there's a COMPLETELY different set of rules. The dealer has entrusted you to his back stock, let you 'in', and let you take advantage of having virgin material to pick through. It is your OBLIGATION to tell the dealer what you found, what it's worth, and what kind of market there would be for it. You are playing the part of 'confidant' at that point, not just 'customer'. You should show the respect of at least trying to share the wealth with the dealer who treated you differently than the other customers. If he refuses and says 'you found it, it's yours...enjoy' then fine. But if you don't tell him what you're finding in his stock room, YOU are being dishonest. Same thing applies with a collection some non-collector or beginner collector wants to sell and you decide to buy it. It is your OBLIGATION to tell the collector they have this or that valuable coin and you need to come up with a fair offer for it considering what it is. NEVER look through a collector's coins, cherrypick a valuable coin, then offer the collector normal coin value for it. That's ethically STEALING! BUT...rules still apply as above. Strange dealer you don't know (or do, doesn't really matter) and you're a typical customer going through coins available to anyone else in the public - already priced, ready to sell, and the dealer has his margin marked on the holders - CHERRYPICK AWAY...there's absolutely NO obligation on your part to share with the dealer what you are finding. Just pay the price marked and move on. Edited by coppercoins
03/02/2011 5:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
Very well said. Thank you CC. As always appreciate your input.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
687 Posts |
Cherry picking is not unethical. Just don't rub it in to the guy if you find something valuable :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts |
Cherrypicking is certainly not unethical, but TACT is imperative to continued success. Many dealers have issues with handing over a stock box, or even anyone who looks too closely at the coins they offer. When you locate a dealer who just doesn't care about die varieties, think about how you represent the E/V hobby. My favorite dealers make me show them everything I picked and explain the variety and potential value. Often times, the next time I cross paths with them, they have varieties that they have saved for me. Often, it's Strike Doubling or something else unexciting, but they're getting better and it really pays off for me. There is absolutely nothing unethical about using your specialized knowledge to your benefit! I make a living doing such. I will tell you though- when I cherry something really special, I always throw an extra $20 at the dealer, the good ones usually decline it saying they are happy with the price I paid.....trying to talk someone down on a coin you've cherrypicked is definitely a no-no. That's where ethics come in. Eventually, most people will realize what you've done, you'll lose respect and possibly cut off a valuable connection. In reference to what Chuck said- When someone cherrypicks me (and it does happen), I couldn't be happier for them! I'm making mine on the coin, if someone else can do well, more power to them. Once I sold a 1968-D OBW roll of cents- when the buyer opened the roll, it yielded 11 doubled die reverses- I was envious, but glad for the guy. He make over $3,000 on that roll! Coin dealers invented cherrypicking- you take your Lincoln set into a shop- they'll make offers on the nicer coins, or a low offer on the whole set, only to make their money off of a couple of coins....take in a random accumulation of stuff- they'll pull out the silver and hand you back the coins that should be spent....that's cherrypicking on the most basic level. The whole idea of collecting is to advance one's accumulation of chosen treasure- collecting wouldn't be nearly as much fun without the chance of getting that valuable piece for a great deal- whatever it is. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
Liveandie-thanks for the incredibly lucid response. I agree with you and Chuck. My other passion is first edition/first printing books. You would not believe the number that I have found in thrift store/salvation army's. The correlation between the two is the distinct esoteric markers that you have to know to find what you want. I guess the time and effort of learning what to look for justifies your success.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts |
I had talked about this thread to my dealer today. His reply was, "There should be no guilt felt from cherry picking. If a dealer has a price on something such as a Morgan & it turns out to be a rare VAM, then that's great for the buyer." I told him that if I found something like that in his shop that he didn't realize had a greater value than the marked price, I would offer him something extra. His reply was "If he didn't take the time to educate himself on the varieties, then the buyer gets a nice find that they educated themselves on." I guess all this puts everything in a different perspective for me. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts |
Sounds like you found yourself a down to earth dealer. His sentiments reflect exactly how I feel. Anyone EVER sell coins to a dealer and later get a call saying that they owe you more money? (I've actually done that, but don't expect it!)
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Replies: 17 / Views: 2,725 |
Posted 03/01/2011 11:10 pm
