1788 Mexico 8R, Is This Fake? Help Please!

Hello northwestseeker.

I an hoping swamperbob comes onboard and gives us his opinions because he is most knowledegable when it comes to detecting contemporary counterfeits.
I mainly collect Mexican Cap & Rays 8 Reales which were the successor coins to these Spanish 8R's but I have recently been collecting these also.

These are the things I would be worried about on this coin.

1. The "mushy" look on the portrait side, almost looks like a cast coin but I have also seen damage that makes a real coin look porous. Especially since the other side doesen't really have this "mushiness" to it. On the REX part of the coin I see what looks like damage also, almost looks like saltwater damage.

2. The gash which looks like there's some rust in there or some plating came off which would really be a bad sign. Also the discoloration by his shoulder. Can't tell for sure from the pictures.

3. The elevated 788 compared to the 1 on the date.

The mushiness would be the biggest thing that I would be worried about but hopefully some other members will come on board with their comments.

In the meantime be sure to do these easy tests.

Edge: Coin should have a rectangle-circle pattern on the edge. If you can post pictures of the edge, that would be great.

Weight: The weight should be very close to 27.1 grams.
Diameter: The diameter should be around 39-40mm.
Magnet test: Coin should NOT be magnetic.
Sound test: Coin should have the distinct silver ring to it. (be careful not to damage)

Hum, I have doubts about this coin as well.
I don't see how the edge can overlap that way using a collar - although there seem to be two overlap :
* one over the I or HISPAN...
* and the second one which I cannot figure out on the last picture - is it near the X of REX ?
The coin could have been sea salvadged (or river) - which could explain why one side is better than the other. I don't like the overall look of the coin though, not sure why.

Hello Northwestseeker and welcome to the wonderful world of Spanish Colonial 8 Reales. Your coin has some issues but at this point the jury is still out. The obverse is mushy like RealPeso pointed out but that could be from land or sea salvage (though I don't think so). The edge is strange at best, the design seems to have a long overlap at one point and a much shorter overlap at another. By the way, the overlap we refer to is where the edge design overlaps itself. Since these coins were edged with a dual bar edger, there should be equal length overlaps in design exactly 180 degrees apart. Your coin seems to have the overlaps 180 degrees apart but for some reason one looks much longer than the other, not possible on a real coin. However the edge design could have damage that makes it look that way, hard to tell from the pictures (which by the way are better than any I can take). What really worries me is that some of the circles in the edge design look like squares with a circle in the center, usually indicative of a full weight bullion fake, the type Swamperbob calls "Boston Style". But on the bright side, the Boston type sell for the same value as the originals since most people either cannot tell them apart or refuse to believe the are a separate counterfeit type since they are so prolific and have full silver content. So let's get some info on the weight, some close up photos of the gash and a close up of the portrait to determine why it looks so mushy. Swamperbob will be along at some point and he is the resident expert on counterfeit 8 reales. Could you point out on the coin obverse where the edge overlaps are in relation to each other?

The cut appears to expose a core of lesser metal (copper, most likely). Do you have a microscope by any chance to take a closer look at the core metal? Combined with porous surfaces, mushy legend, "die breaks" on the reverse, and wobbly edge with an uneven overlap - I would call it a silver plated contemporary counterfeit.

Just my stab at it.

The gash strikes me as contemporary and with that, I find it possible that the debris in the gash could give it the off-color that we are all seeing. I agree it could be a "Boston" however the inner-circle on the edging looks pretty good. I bought a fake one of these once and the details on yours looks much better than the one I had...

That said, the porous surface on one side does look fishy. Sorry.

northwestseeker Sorry to jump in so late.

For me the coin appears to be a forgery and as one of the commentators already pointed out it could be a Boston type. But it may be one of the later period fakes that was NOT pure silver. I am suspicious of the color change BUT not sure it represents a change in metal. A small dab of silver cleaner on a tiny stick (a frayed toothpick tip is good) can be used to clean a tiny spot INSIDE the gash. It may or may not be solid silver.

This does not really effect the balance of this post or the comments about Boston style forgeries. Because there were bullion dealers who had debased 8Rs manufactured to defraud the Chinese.

The Boston class are a type of bullion forgeries made in the US and other places in the world to take advantage of the drop in world silver prices in the late 1800's. The coins are originally full weight silver when compared to originals and were made because Chinese merchants preferred the old Bust Man dollars to the more recently produced 8Rs or Trade dollars. There was a profit margin of 15 to 20% over bullion after all costs of manufacture so it was advantageous to have them made.

Most of the Boston forgeries have certain features in common.

One feature is the BAD edge. There are several different edge errors that seem to distinguish between the forgery groups. One of those errors is a variation in the shape and size of the edge figures. Notice that the circles and rectangles are not all the same size. Original dies were created from standardized punch segments shipped from Spain. Use of a standard punch to make the edge dies meant that there could NOT BE that amount of variation. I was not able to determine whether or not you have two overlaps opposite one another - but I did notice that the overlap most visible in your last picture is FAR TOO LONG for an original overlap. It is excess of 7 segments and possibly much longer if the faint impression I am seeing is not a photographic reflection. The apparatus in the colonial era was NEVER used to do more than one blank at a time and since it was hand operated NO EXTRA DIE LENGTH was used. The distance between the start and end points was very well known and of fixed length. To have overlaps that long extra die would be needed and extra time needed to crank the apparatus. They could not afford the loss of time.

The second feature that points to forgery are the soft die breaks above the crown and through the M in the assayer initials. These odd cracks are seen on poor grade die steel and do not have the shape of REAL die fractures caused by stress in high strength steel. They are also seen on Modern Chinese dental plastic dies.

The soft surface of the obverse that was noted a few times could be from the use of a mechanical duplicating lathe - sort of a 1 to 1 Janvier lathe. I have heard they were in use in Boston in 1893 (based on a period Newspaper article discussing a forgery ring that made US dollars) but I have never quite been able to determine exactly what a die made on that type apparatus would look like. I speculate that the rough surface could be such a clue. NO proof yet but a mechanical lathe could have such vibrations.

Also I see what may be the end of some of the dentils terminating at an arc parallel to the edge - from the 1 in the date to the C in Carolus - and perhaps over the LU in Carolus are possible issues. This would be logical if the coin being copied was slightly off center - no dentils to copy. The incomplete die would have to be perfectly aligned not to disclose some of the edge.

Finally the surface cracking so typical of some Boston copies appears to be visible in the area of the gouge and the Roman Numerals in the Kings name.

I would however really love to know the weight and SG of this coin.