Are Counterfeiters/Forgers Picking Our Brains?

The staff are aware of the issue - it's especially suspicious when half a dozen new members, all from the same country, all sign up at the same time and do nothing but post counterfeit and dubious coins. We want CCF to be a place where people can learn about counterfeit detection, but we have no intention of allowing CCF to become a university for counterfeit improvement, nor do we want CCF to be a handy reference the counterfeiters can copy-and-paste or post links to and say "look, these people think my coin is genuine". I still remember the Mattski affair.

How to educate newbies without educating the crooks is the tricky part. We certainly don't want our more knowledgeable members to altogether cease posting information that helps the unwary to avoid counterfeits.

I remember the Mattski affair, though I think that particular guy was rather dim. I'm sure there are very clever forgers out there that are very good - and the onus is on us, as collectors, to be vigilant. Anyone remember the photographs of the Chinese workshop with thousands upon thousands of forged coins and the stamping machines? And that was just a back yard set-up.

The ancients field of numismatics is particually tricky because of the nature of the hand struck coins in the first place and the varying quality of some issues anyway.

If their tricks and abilities get better (and I'm sure they will) will there ever come a time where it will be nigh on impossible to tell real from fake? I'm thinking 50....100 years from now...I hope not.

I've asked myself the same question based on some of the posting activity on these forums recently. If you're paranoid, that makes two of us.

I speak for myself when I say I think the better educated the buyer, the better off the market is. I personally hold back lots of "markers" on coins that identify them as real vs fake but on common fakes like most of the ones posted here, I think it is important to point out generalizations like "color", "detail" etc. I have collected for a long time (yes, I am old) and I have learned alot in the last few years off this forum and can only think others have learned as well. Are we educating the forgers? Obviously. But they are evolving everyday with or without us. The solution to the counterfeiting problem is diligence, education and trying to get our idiots in Washington to take their minds off their wallets and realize we have a problem. If we started counterfeiting Chinese collector coins in mass and flooding China through ebay with them you can bet the Chinese government would step in and scream bloody murder.

quotes:
"Maybe I'm paranoid."
"This is not paranoia at all ..."
"If you're paranoid, that makes two of us."

please remember The Second Rule of Psychiatry:
"sometimes, paranoids DO have enemies."

Interesting discussion which I have had many times in many different venues.

But rest assured that, one thing that is absolutely certain is that EVERYTHING I have posted or seen on this forum is already well known by the expert forgers. In that respect they are well ahead of the details being relayed on this forum.

All authenticators have clues that are not divulged generally and I am certainly holding back some of the not generally known keys to fakes. This data is passed on usually verbally - authenticator to authenticator - like the tricks of a magician.

BUT it is essential that we get all buyers and collectors up to speed on the cheap knock off fakes coming out of China so that they 1) Do not waste their money and 2) So that the market for the awful fakes dries up.

In the process, we may be helping the low end forgers to improve their product BUT it is all well known data. These hints we discuss here would cost the forgers money to correct - making their product more expensive to make and hopefully that level of technology will drive the marginal high volume operations out of business.

The most dangerous stuff ebay is facing now is often at the Kindergarten level of forgery. It is dangerous because so many are available so cheap - not because they are hard to spot.

I have been involved in forgery detection since the very early 1970's on a very serious level. I learned the techniques I use from two of the best in the business at that time. But I am always learning more and in the nearly 30 years since they died I have added to their bag of tricks.

One thing I know for certain is that even in the 1970's there were forgers who EXCEEDED belief in the painstaking way they manufactured high end fakes. These forgers are a danger when their coins pass muster with the high end TPG companies. Anyone familiar with forgery knows of the Omega forgeries. They are very collectible as MODERN FAKES because they are well executed. But they are NOT THE BEST.

Mark Hoffman now serving life for murder in Utah was one of the best. NO ONE YET even knows what he made. Many of his forgeries are super high end and according to stories I have heard all of his "best" work was certified.

I have indicated a few times on this forum that I knew of the existence of the micro O Morgan dollar forgeries since 1970. That is a fact. These forgeries were routinely encapsulated by all of the TPG entities until AFTER 2000! That is also a fact. But now that data is out - well known and the keys for identification have been published.

The coins is question were produced about 80 years ago!

The real threat to the hobby has been the willingness of new collectors to uncritically accept anything as real. This is particularly true of "BARGAIN" coins which even attract the attention of professional buyers.

A recent article in August 22, Coin World about a forger apprehended July 21 is a picture of GREED. Not just by the seller (Mr. Jenkins) alone but by more particularly by many of the BUYERS involved.

The case is very interesting to me personally because the coin dealer I work for part time was one of those swindled by Mr. Jenkins. The coins he bought were all Chinese fakes - not even silver.

This dealer, like all of the others, saw a possibility of a good profit by making a quick buy from a man that "needed to sell" but they were all swindled in the process. GREED overtook their common sense. In the case of my employer he claims that he was taken in by the "last second switch". Mr. Jenkins had TWO sets of dollar coins in IDENTICAL holders. The first set was real. These were evaluated and a rather low ball price was offered (I am actually ashamed that the owner did that because two of the coins were CC dollars but that is a different issue). The seller, Mr. Jenkins hesitated at first then turned away from the counter for a second and then put the coins back on the counter and said "He had to sell them". In the meantime he switched the real coins for the fakes. The buyer took the cash and was gone. The dealer didn't recheck the coins for several hours. They were in older "cloudy" 2x2 holders so the deception was not really obvious.

Immediately one lesson I had learned in 1970 came back to mind. The old dealer I learned from told me that once a seller touches or PICKS UP a coin that you have already reviewed LOOK AT IT AGAIN before handing over cash.

But some of the dates sold by the "thief" were never even made. He also sold 1804 US Dollars. No one in their right mind believes there are any of them just floating around for sale at melt. But he sold them to pawn shops owners as well. Depending on the expertise of the intended mark I would bet Mr. Jenkins actually showed the fakes first.

Greed is a very bad thing - DO NOT BUY BARGAIN COINS - they are NO BARGAIN.

So SPREAD THE WORD.

I have often wondered about this issue myself. I wasn't around for the Mattski affair but I read the archived thread and I can well imagine someone pulling a stunt like that. Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of detailed information out on the internet that a faker could use to "cover his bases" with his infamy.

For example, I myself am in posession of a fake Chinese 1909-S VDB cent. (I knew it was a fake when I got it, the person who sent it to me knew it was a fake, and the only money that ever changed hands regarding it was $2.50 to ebay. I intend to keep it and I've permanently marked it as a fake, so hopefully it will never victimize anyone.) Anyone with any amount of coin-related experience could look at it (even without my mark) and spot it as a fake right away, it's definitely not a perfect copy. (I don't want to post the giveaways on here, on the off chance that a crook should read this someday.) But, I will say that the weight, the thickness, the metallic properties, the lettering, the mintmark location, the wheat stalks on the reverse, and the location of the VDB are spot-on compared to the real thing, and I have no doubt that the counterfeiters checked their dies against the Internet to improve the fakery. As I've said, it certainly wouldn't fool a dealer or a knowledgeable collector, but a new collector could quite possibly get taken advantage of.

Oh, and even though it was originally listed on ebay with a big "COPY" stamp on it, it definitely did not have one on arrival.