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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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The family members were descendants of one of the original thief's, Isreal Switt. No way they should benefit. Yes it is believed that Israel Switt was the fence for the "corrupt cashier" that worked at the mint. For anyone that doesn't know the story or just wants to read about it here is a link to a website that pretty much tells the whole story as much as it can http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44288....T-Cj15HL4ig |
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Bedrock of the Community
 13014 Posts |
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This King Farouk coin is still the only legal 1933 St Gaudens that is legal tender and is the one that sold at auction for the highest price ever paid for a US coin. The reason they didn't go after it is because King Farouk was given export papers from the Secretary of the Treasury in 1944 (not the 1950's as stated above) for the coin (which he purchased from Israel Switt for $1,575), so that meant they knew what it was when they gave it to him which pretty much gave him ownership of the coin. If he had just put it in his pocket and flew back home it would have been a different story and its the one case that has brought allot of controversy throughout the years because all others that have been found has been confiscated by the Govt. Also King Farouk coin was an ally of the US in a place where we had very few, legal or not that coin was to be left alone as long as he had it and was on our side. I did however get the impression someone called in some favors and wouldnt be surprised if it was a "gift" from the state department for the king to get the papers. Living in DC and knowing how this town works it wouldnt surprise me at all Quote:
If I am not mistaken they have exhausted all their efforts to keep the coins and took it all the way to the Supreme Court Thats a nice double slap in the face, lose out on millions and probably owe a lawyers a few million when its said and done. Any word on what the final destination of the coins will be. Would be such a shame to have them melted down. How cool would that be though if somehow you were able to prove you got a gold coin made from the double eagle gold. Quote:
The family members were descendants of one of the original thief's, Israel Switt. No way they should benefit. Part of me agrees with this, but at the same time the family members werent the ones who stole it and considering when it was stolen aside from possessing the coins didnt really do anything wrong. I have a hard time punishing people who didnt do anything and its not like they are befitting from illegal arm sales or something of that nature |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I had edited my post to add this information but once I did I noticed the post above so I edited it out and posted it here instead.
I want to add, everytime there is discussions about the 1933 coins there is always a heated debate between the two sides that believe which ever way. Some claim the Govt had no case because these weren't the people that took the coins and others believe that stolen property is always stolen and belongs to the "original owner" and will until they release ownership to someone else. There have been some discussions on this forum that has had to be edited or even locked because of how passionate they are in their beliefs about these coins. I myself battle between coin collector and what I feel is right but if this is going to be one of those discussions about the legality of the coins lets keep is a discussion and not an argument between members
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Bryan I couldnt agree more about keeping it a discussion and dont wish to start any arguments. I just find it very interesting and definitely can see both sides of the issue. I do agree it is stolen until the government says its not, at the same time they didnt steal it and just seems like some middle ground could be met even if that was just allowing them to claim ownership and have museums display them. Basically anything is better than sending those coins off to be melted
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8517 Posts |
I just cant see allowing a thief or his decendants to benefit. It would be akin to allowing families of Nazi's that stole art during WW2 to keep the paintings because they werent the ones that took em.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
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Donk they wanted to see if they were real or not. Probably had no idea they were illegal. 10 would be a brutal loss, life changing money. I cent remember the exact details but it seemed like the government was okay with the 7.5 million dollar sale of the one on public display. I kind of feel like at this point they should just let the 16 or so exist
They knew they were real and they knew the government considered them to be illegal. Quote:
The "OK" coin was exported WITH A PROPER LICENSE" and that claim of legitimacy
held up in court. No it didn't. It never went to trial. The government probably knew they would lose the case so they settled out of court. That was one of the reason Langborns sent their coins in for "authentication". They had the same lawyer that had running the Farouk/Fenton coins case. He still wanted to try and force the government to admit they should be legal. He never should have allowed them to send all ten coins though. One or two would have sufficed. I suspect he didn't intend for them to send all ten, that was probably the families mistake. Quote:
The family members were descendants of one of the original thief's, Israel Switt. Careful there with the accusation. While the government claims they were stolen, with no evidence that they ever knew they were missing, I don't believe they ever actually accused Switt of being the thief. Fence maybe but not the thief. Frankly since on no less than five occasions the government has declared that ALL of the 1933 double eagles have been accounted for, I would say they have no clue HOW they got out, or if those were by legal or illegal means. (Even now they claim they have all been accounted for but we know there is at least one more out there somewhere.) Quote:
If I am not mistaken they have exhausted all their efforts to keep the coins and took it all the way to the Supreme Court No it did go to the Federal Courts but it has not gone to the Supreme Court. They are still filing motions and appeals. One of their motions was denied by the court just recently. Quote:
I did however get the impression someone called in some favors and wouldnt be surprised if it was a "gift" from the state department for the king to get the papers. No Farouk purchased the coin and his agent filed for an export license as the law required. The license request went through normal channels and since the law declared all US gold coins 1933 and earlier were legal for collectors to own the license was routinely granted. It wasn't until latter in 1944 when one was coming up for auction and a reporter contacted the government for an answer to the question why such a recent coin wth a high mintage was so valuable that they started looking into the matter. Up until that time 1933 double eagles had openly been bought and sold, even advertised for sale. After Farouk was deposed and his collection was going to be auctions off the government did request the return of the Farouk coin but the Egyption government declined. It was the dealers attending the auction that got the Egyptions to withdraw the coin (it was part of a bulk lot of double eagles) because they knew they would not be able to bring it back home with them. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8517 Posts |
Fence/thief, no difference to me. I believe Switt was never charged due to statute of limitations.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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I just cant see allowing a thief or his decendants to benefit. It would be akin to allowing families of Nazi's that stole art during WW2 to keep the paintings because they werent the ones that took em. I get what your saying but the horrible crimes and nature of the Nazis aside I think theres some key differences here. Yes they were stolen, but they werent stolen from a person. The government isn't missing them since they just want to destroy them as opposed to someone missing part of a collection. Really you could make the argument nothing was stolen at all since the right amount of gold was melted so the government actually didnt lose anything. Quote:
I believe Switt was never charged due to statute of limitations. I cant remember if his name was mentioned but in the show they did say some people got off because of the statute of limitation expiring |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
in that link I posted above this is what it says Quote:
In Switt's statement to the agents, his only official pronouncement about the coins, he said that he didn't have any records of where, when, or how he had obtained the Double Eagles. But he claimed that he did not buy them from any employees of the Mint.
Nonetheless, after a 10-month investigation, the Secret Service concluded that it was more likely than not that Switt was the fence for a corrupt Mint cashier. In 1945, the Justice Dept. wanted to press charges, but by then the statute of limitations had run out. Quote:
Really you could make the argument nothing was stolen at all since the right amount of gold was melted so the government actually didn't lose anything. Can you explain this because it makes no sense to me, if someone hoarded silver or gold coins and was wanting to melt it down to make anything but coins out of it and someone broke into their house and stole the coins before they could do it are you saying they didn't really steal it because they were going to destroy them anyway? The owner can do what they wish to their own property and if its stolen when it is found it is still their property to do what they wish with in my opinion. Someone could say that all the family should have to pay is $20.00 to the Govt. for each coin since that is what it would have been worth when they were minted and they would be correct about the worth in 1933 BUT just because that is what something is worth, the original owner has no obligation to sell something they don't want to sell. I know I would never sell any of my Double Eagles for $20.00 and would love to see someone try to make me even if I planned to glue all of them onto my car or melt them down and dip my car wheels in them Believe me from a coin collectors perspective I hate thinking these pieces of history will be melted down into anything but the coins they are already made into. I hope the Govt. would allow them to be displayed as they already have been doing since they confiscated them, but it is up to them what they do with them |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8517 Posts |
Bottom line...people shouldn't benefit from ill gotten gains. No matter how long they waited to cash in.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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Can you explain this because it makes no sense to me, if someone hoarded silver or gold coins and was wanting to melt it down to make anything but coins out of it and someone broke into their house and stole the coins before they could do it are you saying they didn't really steal it because they were going to destroy them anyway? The owner can do what they wish to their own property and if its stolen when it is found it is still their property to do what they wish with in my opinion. Someone could say that all the family should have to pay is $20.00 to the Govt. for each coin since that is what it would have been worth when they were minted and they would be correct about the worth in 1933 BUT just because that is what something is worth, the original owner has no obligation to sell something they don't want to sell. I know I would never sell any of my Double Eagles for $20.00 and would love to see someone try to make me even if I planned to glue all of them onto my car or melt them down and dip my car wheels in them What I mean by this is the government didnt lose out on anything because the correct amount of gold was there. One of the reasons that it wasnt known for a while these coins were stolen until they surfaced is because when they melted them down they just did it by gold weight and didnt check the coins. So for everything missing coin it was replaced by another gold coin of the exact same weight and value and maybe even another double eagle only the year and/or design was different. So basically what I was getting at saying you could argue nothing was stolen was because the government wasnt robbed of a single ounce of gold. They had just as much gold before the swap as after the swap. To use your analogy say someone wanted to melt down 50 ounces of silver eagles to make something else. Say the guy at the smelter decides he wants the silver eagles and instead of melting them down melts 50 ounces of silver instead and makes what ever they wanted to make out of it. Is that really stealing? The customer still has the exact same value and still has exactly what they wanted the source of the metal is just different, but still the exact same metal and value |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
It is interesting to me, having read everything I have ever encountered about the 1933 Double Eagles, that every coin that surfaced, these 10, the ones seized by the government in the 1940's and even the legal to own Farouk/Fenton all were traced back to Israel Switt who claimed when interviewed by the Secret Service he didn't remember where he got them (or the other date high value double eagles he sold) and that he didn't have any more even as new ones kept turning up. The man blatantly lied on numerous occasions to the Secret Service.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Anyone think more were taken than the government knows about considering how hard it would be to track back then? With how willing the family was to take a shot on 10 of them part of me thinks they had more and kept a few just in case as at least something to pass down
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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What I mean by this is the government didnt lose out on anything because the correct amount of gold was there. One of the reasons that it wasnt known for a while these coins were stolen until they surfaced is because when they melted them down they just did it by gold weight and didnt check the coins. So for everything missing coin it was replaced by another gold coin of the exact same weight and value and maybe even another double eagle only the year and/or design was different. Thanks for explaining because I could not wrap my mind around what you were saying. I guess then the Govt. should pay the switt family the $200.00 the coins were worth that got traded for the 1933 double eagles then. Even with the explanation given I wouldn't want someone to swap my 1907 Wire rim double eagle (that was part of my Grandfathers estate and will never be sold as long as any of us grandchildren are alive) for a 1922 double eagle and then tell me that I didn't lose anything because I still had the same amount of gold Quote:
Switt who claimed when interviewed by the Secret Service he didn't remember where he got them (or the other date high value double eagles he sold) and that he didn't have any more even as new ones kept turning up. The man blatantly lied on numerous occasions to the Secret Service. Yes and I believe this is what really was the Govt.'s ace in the hole, they had asked for any 1933 double eagles that Switt had in his possession on numerous occasions to be returned and he lied and said he didn't have any and didn't remember who he sold them to Quote:
Anyone think more were taken than the government knows about considering how hard it would be to track back then? I have heard rumors and read statements from big dealers/collectors of more being out there and also being traded privately between collectors but no one will say for sure it has happened nor who is doing the trading and claim they haven't seen it but just heard of it themselves for obvious reasons Quote:
No it did go to the Federal Courts but it has not gone to the Supreme Court. They are still filing motions and appeals. One of their motions was denied by the court just recently. Thanks, I knew they had appealed the ruling and heard they had been denied a motion but couldn't find anything online about it or how far it had actually gone since the federal ruling in 2011. I did find it interesting that Joan Langbord said she didn't know the coins were there but had been to the SDB numerous times between 1996 and when she reportedly found the coins in 2003 one of those times being coincidentally the day before the Farouk coin was to be auctioned. I have heard she may have known the coins were there but may not have really paid much attention to the dates and when this Farouk coin was about to be auctioned off she thought about it and knowing Israel Switt was the one who sold the coin in the beginning she went to look and found it was more 1933's. I believe is this is what happened she should have used that statement in court as it would sound allot more convincing than the statement she gave that "she was getting coins for a buyer" out of the SDB the day before the auction. I don't believe it would change the outcome but may have made her more believable in court |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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Thanks for explaining because I could not wrap my mind around what you were saying. I guess then the Govt. should pay the switt family the $200.00 the coins were worth that got traded for the 1933 double eagles then. Even with the explanation given I wouldn't want someone to swap my 1907 Wire rim double eagle (that was part of my Grandfathers estate and will never be sold as long as any of us grandchildren are alive) for a 1922 double eagle and then tell me that I didn't lose anything because I still had the same amount of gold Very true but if for some unkown reason you go crazy or gold shoots up to a million dollars an ounce and you decide to melt it, if someone swapped it before melting and gave you an ounce of gold back at the end of the day wouldnt all you care about be that you have as much melted gold as you started with? Obviously the government has other reasons for wanting it back besides gold value, but since they apparently care so much why dont they check the coins before melting them? It certainly would have been more cost and time effective than having the secret service chase them for almost a decade now. Obviously the fact they arent legal tender trumps other arguments, but in a different setting would be an interesting legal argument since in the end the government wanted the gold for something else, and they did get their gold. If they dont want the 200 bucks for the traded coins I would be happy to accept on their behalf  Quote:
I have heard rumors and read statements from big dealers/collectors of more being out there and also being traded privately between collectors but no one will say for sure it has happened nor who is doing the trading and claim they haven't seen it but just heard of it themselves for obvious reasons I personally believe those rumors to be true. I believe any coins the mint made that were supposedly destroyed, especially pre modern security methods, were smuggled out and exist somewhere. If he could get 25 out so easy why wouldnt he have gotten more, you can fit more than that into a single coat. And I'm sure others thought the same way as well. |
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Replies: 69 / Views: 6,198 |
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Posted 06/19/2012 12:32 pm
