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1960-D LMC SD Is this wide enough to be a Feeder Finger Die Gouge?  
 

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 Posted 01/11/2017  3:41 pm Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
A couple of questions:

Is this (see arrow) wide enough to be a Feeder Finger Die Gouge?

Are the extra long straight lines around LIBERTY die scratches/polishing lines? They seem deeper than the others showing.









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 Posted 01/11/2017  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Pete,
I will get this thread started. It does not look like FFD,looks like some other type of a gouge.
The obverse does look like die scratches.
John 1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
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 Posted 01/11/2017  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Check CoinCollector2000's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CoinCollector2000 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It kind of looks like it, but I'd wait for experts
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 Posted 01/11/2017  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Or die dent.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 01/11/2017  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cwb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The obverse is showing some heavy die scratches.
I'm not sure what is going on with the reverse, it is some kind of die damage, but I wouldn't know what caused it. It doesn't look like feeder finger damage to me.
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 Posted 01/11/2017  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCentsLady to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really interesting - I vote for Die Dent. Since (I think) they usually occur at the rim.

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 Posted 01/12/2017  04:46 am  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but I wouldn't know what caused it



Reminiscent of this prior discussion, but this is a bit different shape and angle and it is on the Reverse.
http://goccf.com/t/275938#275938
Edited by Pete2226
01/12/2017 04:47 am
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 Posted 01/12/2017  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cwb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe witnessing it happen will be the only way to know for sure how it happens. As common as it is, it must have something to do with the way the dies are treated after they are made and have been used for a while. Maybe tool marks from polishing or carelessness with a tool while working on a die.
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 Posted 01/12/2017  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Maybe tool marks from polishing or carelessness with a tool while working on a die.


It seems to me that these kinds of things, while undoubtedly a part of a die's life, are random types of occurrences.

The gouges we have been seeing fall into, perhaps, 2 or 3 categories as far as their size, shape, and angle to the rim go. To me, that removes them from the realm of being a random occurrence.


Quote:
Maybe witnessing it happen will be the only way to know for sure how it happens.


I wish you were wrong about that, but it seems as if you may be right!
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 Posted 01/12/2017  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am very suspicious of the die-bangs-die scenario, because the people handling the dies are unlikely to casually smack one into another and, if they inadvertently do, to then perform so cursory an examination that they fail to notice naked-eye-scale damage to the die.

Further, I am mindful of the fact that steel is not only a lot harder than copper or silver, but that it has a much higher melting point, too.

Howzabout we consider steel fragments in the copper planchet?

The shavings might easily survive the copper smelter (see higher melting temperature, above) and the planchet forming equipment (see hardness, above).

Moreover, during compression, I can 'see' a steel fragment migrating from the center to the edges of the planchet-now-almost-coin, which would account for the shallow-angle placement near the rim.

Alternately, steel fragments near the center of the planchet would be buried in the thicker devices, which is why we only see the results of these fragments near the rim, where the planchet is pressed thinnest.

Steel fragments could have been introduced at any point, including when the copper ore was first crushed (at the mine).

2c.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
Why collect coins? Memory is the second thing to go. The use of money is the last thing to go.
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 Posted 01/12/2017  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am very suspicious of the die-bangs-die scenario


I am too!


Quote:
Howzabout we consider steel fragments in the copper planchet?


The problem with this is that they would be random. The 2 or 3 different manifestation types of these gouges are repeated numerous times. That tells me they are not random. (See the other thread mentioned)
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 Posted 01/12/2017  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If they were steel fragments then they would be struck into the soft copper planchet.




A struck through fragment would leave either the metal there or an incuse mark on the coin.

On this coin the area is raised on the coin. not something added to the coin. It is an incuse mark on the die, that left a raised area on the fields.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 01/12/2017  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cwb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know the grading companies label these strike throughs as examples of staples, but since there are no staples used in the minting area, but there are wire brushes used, I am more apt to believe they are wire fragments from brushes rather than staples.
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 Posted 01/13/2017  02:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That spring sure is something.
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 Posted 01/13/2017  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
... If they were steel fragments then they would be struck into the soft copper planchet ...


In the first coin ...

... but the defect they left behind in the die would be visible in coins 2 through N, sans fragment, and N could be pretty big.


Quote:
... The 2 or 3 different manifestation types of these gouges are repeated numerous times ...


Hence my suggestion that the steel fragments (I like the wire brush bristles) flowed towards the rim, or damaged the die when they were in a thinner area of the coin, eg, near the rim.

Still on sale, at only 2c!

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
Why collect coins? Memory is the second thing to go. The use of money is the last thing to go.
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 Posted 01/13/2017  1:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Hence my suggestion that the steel fragments (I like the wire brush bristles) flowed towards the rim, or damaged the die when they were in a thinner area of the coin, eg, near the rim.

The problem with the 'steel fragments' theory, as coop said, is that even if there was a fragment of steel (or anything else, for that matter) embedded in the planchet, it wouldn't be raised on the coin. I don't believe that a little piece of steel in the planchet could do any damage to the die.
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