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What's the proper nomenclature for this here '42 Merc dime action?

 
 
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New Member
United States
10 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  05:03 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Packagemonkey to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Relative neophyte. So may I first assure the forum that I fully intend to put in a solid two decades on the forum before I post topics strongly alluding to a belief I have a hyper-rare valuable error/variety and will delusionally proceed to aggressively argue with everyone who tells me different.

I realize a 1942 Merc dime question generally says something. Here it says for some reason my Grandma had 23 1942 Merc dimes taped tight in the inner cover in an almost full book of Merc dimes (a few ruined by tape, most by a black goo leeching—-good product). So I dutifully hailed out the loupe. This was one. It's clearly 1942 underneath but the original is at a significant different angle. The end of the 2 comes upon the triangle space behind the top one (hard to see). Anyway, enlighten me? Thanks.


*** Moved by Staff moved to a more appropriate forum. ***
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United States
13306 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  05:17 am  Show Profile   Check Fuzzy317's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Fuzzy317 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On CCF, a Mercury dime is considered a Classic coin, so I moved your post to the appropriate section for the proper attention.

Please review the forum section descriptions, so posts are made in the correct section.

<---- expert of nothing, student of everything. My Coin Galleries
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 Posted 08/25/2018  07:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To CCF , The first thing I recommend is soaking all the ones that had tape on them in 100% pure Acetone . That will remove all the goo tape residue from the coins without hurting them . Does the coin in your photo have a D mint mark located on back of coin (lower left hand corner) ? I make no claims to be an error expert but wait for other members to chime in .
Don't take life too seriously and remember it is just a passing fad ......
Michael Philip Jagger

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United States
10 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Packagemonkey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nope, no D. It's a Philly.

Not to dismiss friendly help ever but I dug in for a month or so to do due diligence reading and research all areas of the forum to familiarize myself with the lingo, the etiquette, and the fundamentals of "so you just unearthed your grandparents long-forgotten, pretty hobby-level substantial American coin collection, now what"?

Clearly, I need to now read the finer points of how to use the medium, though. Haha. Also, I am a writer but I promise to not post novellas as a norm. I do suck at brevity but I don't have to rival War and Remembrance.

I have been giving acetone baths when I get the time to all those common coins suffering from my Grandma's nasty habit of taping coins (and, sadly, stamps as well)—-often with disappointing results. Haven't touched any of the semi-valuable coins for fear of cleaning coins. The black goo comes not from 40+ year tape residue but from the reverse coin side surface "melting" into the coin. It's a full-on assault from the crappy one-side reveal coin book (green, not blue).

I am partially fluent in mint-marks, luster, cartwheels, etc. Still stumped on Machine Doubling vs. die doubling and the more advanced varietals.

Super appreciate learning do's/dont's, dubious practices, enjoying the art and hunt of doing your hobby the respectable way from all the vets and practitioners here.

Trying not to do—-what do people think of this coin and that coin, what's it worth, and bombarding with things I should/could take the time to look up.

Figure I owe it to whole family to dive in first. But I figure time to dig in and ask when I hit brick walls like a tilted date not very well covered by another strike at it. More looks at it.
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10 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Packagemonkey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



The L in LIBERTY and the I is much the same.
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1110 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The end of the 2 comes upon the triangle space behind the top one


Could you perhaps provide a bit more clarity on what you mean by this statement?
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4915 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  10:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First off
To the CCF.
It is nice to have a new member who has done some homework on their own.

Am I right in assuming that you are perhaps asking if your quarter is possibly a 42 over 41?



If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
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United States
10 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Packagemonkey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I can do this. Clarify myself. No, not asking 42 over 41. It's clearly not. There's distinctly 1942 under this. Except titled at an angle. So, my question is, I guess, is this an example of Machine Doubling or what do you call this kind of production mess up. It's like the first one was done at a sloppy incorrect angle and done over to make it look right. I ask merely because all the Machine Doubling I've seen described is layered just barely off. And often confused with a doubled die. This one starts with the whole 1 exposed barely touching except the top and like I said, you can't really see the under 2 in my pic but the end of the bottom straight line of the two sticks out between the 45 degree opening on the back bottom of the top two.

Is this intentionally corrected dating or some other method?

Nomenclature is the wrong thing to ask.

How was this done and what do you call it? There. Phew. That was hard.
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10197 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you know it's not the OVD of 42D(is different than 42/41P), then it could be a variety of things. W/o closeup of area, even the best descriptions pale. MD is a slight shift of movement, a die chip will be a raised piece still connected to a device, with a possible crack along with. Die gouge is just that, a dig/scratch in die that causes a raised portion, generally isolated from a design device.

The only thing done to the die by hand was to add the mintmark. Design was set and done. Sometimes a slight mod was needed, but they usually tossed the faulty die, had many to replace it with.
Edited by Crazyb0
08/25/2018 11:47 am
New Member
United States
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 Posted 08/25/2018  11:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Packagemonkey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tilted...not titled.

It's all weird to me and it just makes no sense to me. So, we can see the original 1 crystal clear. Let's call it perfectly 12-6 (it's not). The top 1 is struck at 12 and 5:25, slightly up and to the right.

But for the bottom 2 to stick out above the top 2's bottom straight line, the top 2 would have to angle down.

The 4 does this also, just not as pronounced. The bottom 4 sticks out above the cross line of the top 4. If the whole top date were struck off the bottom date as the 1 clearly shows, all the underneath numbers should stick out below.

My head hurts and it just occurred to me I am assuming a struck date is always linear—false.

But then again, if it's doubling, it's tilt would always be the same up and right until it went. It can't doubled itself a new angle, right? If a double starts slightly up and to the right, the whole part has to be up and to the right.

This absolutely does not happen here. There is no way the first two should end anywhere but below the top 2. Arrrrrrggh.

I'm going to go mow the lawn. You guys figure it out for me.

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 Posted 08/25/2018  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's flat and shelf-like similar to Machine Doubling. A doubled die would usually be rounded like the rest of the design. You can see how, on the L, the letter has decreased in size due to this doubling, this is a sign of Machine Doubling.
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 Posted 08/25/2018  12:41 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like Machine Doubling on the date. The devices in the date have been reduced. It's flat and shelflike in appearance.
Errers and Varietys
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 Posted 08/25/2018  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Must agree.



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 Posted 08/25/2018  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Packagemonkey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Flat and shelf-like. Flat and shelf-like. Got it. That's the mantra. Thank you fam. Knowledge +1 today for me.

I will go back to my crippling new hobby of watching 25 or 30 different Ikes battle for my attention as they non-stop a real time toning contest upon catching first light in 30+ years.

Let me know if anyone has a working theory about my Merc dime physics conundrum—-how can a true double exist both above and below the horizon of its original?

Perhaps a 4-digit date is struck numeral by numeral (but then it wouldn't be rightly called a machine double, rather four separate consecutive machine doublings—-something that sounds almost statistically impossible).

There must be a simple explanation. If the doubling begins higher than the original, how may it end lower? And, go team.

(I am not at all challenging opinion. A rainy day requires puzzles. Sorry. Some of you may have actual lives. So abandon topic at will.)


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 Posted 08/25/2018  5:53 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Perhaps a 4-digit date is struck numeral by numeral (but then it wouldn't be rightly called a machine double, rather four separate consecutive machine doublings—-something that sounds almost statistically impossible).


When Mercury dimes were made, the date was added to the die all at once along with the rest of the design. The last time that the dates were added separately to the die was sometime during the production of Barber dimes and even then the digits were added all at once, by hand, in a single punch.

Machine Doubling occurs when either the coin or the dies move while the coin is being struck. It is completely different from a doubled die or a repunched digit.


Quote:
how can a true double exist both above and below the horizon of its original?


I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to figure out. Some rotational doubling can make it appear that the doubling is going in two different directions. Also, it is possible for tripled/quadruple/etc. dies to have doubling in multiple different directions.
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 Posted 08/25/2018  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Quote:
Let me know if anyone has a working theory about my Merc dime physics conundrum—-how can a true double exist both above and below the horizon of its original?

When done meditating, can we see the whole obverse and reverse? May help myself and others see the over all gravity of the current coins dilemma.

I generally don't like to make assumptions or avoid conjecture when dealing with a coins attribution, particularly when I only have a couple of devices singled out for scrutiny.

Judging current images I'd say it shows potential machine movement and or coupled with potential die deterioration. All of which can be present along side a verifiable Doubled Die. DD by the way is not currently apparent within the current denouement. Thanks, Doug.
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