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Different 1899 Five Cents

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Pillar of the Community

Canada
765 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  1:23 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I look at these two coins that appear to be in similar grades and the date looks wider on the left coin when compared to the one on the right.
I then noticed that the 5's in the denomination also appear to be different.
Would this be a variety or is this just the result of wear?
Is it old knowledge that I'm not aware of?

Cheers, Bill


Pillar of the Community
United States
4208 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The only variety C&C alludes to, is the 'high 9' variety. Sorry, but I cant C&P with this 'puter.
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United States
2810 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that jmc or Zonad discussed this on the old CCRS site about a larger 5. I was going to say that the last 9 of the left is closer to the leaf than the one on the right ... but someone beat me to it.
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Canada
1713 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  7:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hounddog Bill would you mind. if I put your images in my computer program. it will only take minutes I will show you if you want. if there is any differents. if you dont post I wont touch.
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Canada
765 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
By all means rocky go ahead, sounds interesting.

Cheers, Bill
Valued Member
Canada
125 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numidan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep these are recorded on french site Numicanada, the main 4 versions are:

Type 1 = even 99 and narrow
Type 2 = high last 9 and narrow
Type 3 = even 99 and wide
Type 4 = high 99 and wide

Here is a little quiz, can you find out which type the dates marked with a question mark are?



Pillar of the Community
Canada
1713 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hounddog Bill you have anew variety. the differents is all on the coins both sides its slightly larger. I will share images with another way for me to prove this to you. the computer program is being looked at so fingers crossed. its a breeze with coins. hounddog bill great images very well done. here is some photoes for you. hounddog bill you have a great variety there




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Canada
1463 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  10:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You'll notice the second coin's last 9 is drastically further from the leaf below it vs the first coin

Also the leaves are completely different, view the leaf point next to the c in cents on both coins,
Edited by Alan
08/26/2019 10:27 pm
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Canada
7826 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2019  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
rocky your pictures and measurements do not distinguish or identify any variety, they do show the effects of die wear, hub wear or varying machine pressure
The spacing discrepancies in the dates as shown by numidan do indicate different varieties as the last nine was punched into each reverse die by hand.
Your program is in trouble already rocky since the developer is obviously unfamiliar with the definition of "variety".
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
08/26/2019 11:47 pm
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2810 Posts
 Posted 08/27/2019  06:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rocky .... Your computer program is, at best, very confusing. The photos from Hounddog don't seem to be exactly the same size so the measurements may be a little off. Also toss in the Die Deterioration into the mix and you will have differences.

Numidan .... As DBM says, the last digit of the date was hand-punched into each working die, so you will have high, low, near, far, along with canted(rotated) CW & CCW. Any coin that you find can be any one of those, along with any combination or gradient. That's like saying that each of the nearly 200 1859 Reverse dies is a different variety because of the hand-punching placement of the last digit, regardless whether there was any D/P's involved. It's also the reason why ICCS and other TPG's stopped certifying the 1896 large cents because there was no definition of "far" .. there was near, close, fairly close, normal, far, very far, far far, along with the combos for high, low and rotations. The French version for this site (Numicanada)posts images from any member collector. The "variety" guide for the site is only a compilation of what members have sent in and is not all-encompassing. Maybe the 1899 5 cent doesn't have many submitters

The differences in the leaves is Die Deterioration or wear. This whole thread started to be about the size of the "5" in the denomination and I can visually see the difference, as it appears to be a different font. I remember this being discussed maybe 10 years ago. DBM and I are of the same mindset concerning the die wear and hand-punching.
Edited by okiecoiner
08/27/2019 06:51 am
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Canada
1713 Posts
 Posted 08/27/2019  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thank you all, what you see that I am using. this is not the computer program. this is another way to check coins. that rule was built by a bundle of computer engineers from the univerity. the accuracy is down to 1 pixel line there is nothing more accurate.
hounddog bill I will do this again another way. if there is holes in the computer program. I need to find them. again thank you, as they say rome was not built in one day.
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 Posted 08/27/2019  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But you are always going to have measurement discrepencies ... just the same as the difference between a crisp new struck coin and one that is either worn or there is die deterioration/wear. As either the coin or the working die wears, the letters & digits get fatter/broader.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1713 Posts
 Posted 08/27/2019  7:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hope fully this works what I see is big crown little crown. wide date narrow date the reverse wreath is wider. than the other coins wreath. hound dog bill hope this helps here come the images









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Canada
1463 Posts
 Posted 08/27/2019  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What hound dog Bill is saying is that a coins design will always get stretched out depending on hubbing and die wear/the sequence the coin is struck. Do the same measurements to a1937 dime and a 1969. I'm not disputing what you're doing, it's helpful, but doesn't take into account die expansion.
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 Posted 08/28/2019  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As DBM, Alan and I are trying to explain .. what you have confusingly shown has nothing to do with any variety, except the spacing of the final 9. Your "was built by a bundle of computer engineers from the university" certainly do not know or understand what an actual VARIETY in numismatics actually is. We have provided reference after reference to you about what is a variety vs an error and also a variety vs normal die/coin wear. This whole thread should be about Hounddog's initial concern ... the size/font of the 5 of the denomination, but has drifted to your inaccurate methodology of ID'ing varieties.
Valued Member
Canada
67 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2019  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UncleVicky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Royal Mint report from 1899 says 49 obverse and 19 reverse dies were used.3 different reverse matrix rf 2 rf 7 and rf 8 were used.6 common varieties are normal date, large o in Victoria high 99,wide 89 , wide and high 99,double punch and wide 99. Vic
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