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2010 P Sacagawea Error On Neck

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
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 Posted 12/17/2021  3:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So I went back and looked the the CN journal article and ya it still inconclusive exactly what caused the issue. Feeder Finger Damage does not add up to me. The effected parts would be considerably lower in the die then the fields yet the fields effected are .not nearly effected as the deeper parts of the hub. There is another theory based on the dies themselves but I don't know how to explain it. I would ask SPP here as he wrote the article and maybe the two errors are actually not related at all but sure look very similar. Though one is a Canadian Coin and this is an americain.

Edit: if one exists there would most likely be many more that exist. I personally have never seen Feeder Finger Damage where the low points on the hub were more effected the the high points, if anyone has another example let me know please.

I would not be as curious if there was not a Canadian error berry similar that has still not been confirmed as to what caused it. And as I stated maybe they are completely un related errors but they sure have an extremely similar look. On top of all that just like a die clash, if it was Feeder Finger Damage shouldn't the raised lines show higher then the part of the portrait that is missing? Not in used into the portraits design with raised areas in between?

Neither errors add up to me to what caused this.
Edited by Wrekkdd
12/17/2021 3:10 pm
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Chase007's Avatar
United States
7513 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chase007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They do look like die scrapes caused by feeder finger.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
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 Posted 12/17/2021  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The biggest confusion for about the feeder finger theory is that the fields seem less dramatically effected then the portrait itself. I do agree that the effected areas are not the highest points on the hub, and that the lower points on the hub were not effected at all which is consistent with any damage to the working hub, what dosnt quite make sense is simply the effect on the field compared to the effect on the portrait, as the fields would have still been higher on the working hub then the effected area, secondly it's hard to tell as I have not seen many of these dollar coins myself but the area effected seems like the lines that are raised are not any higher then they would be if the coin was struck normally which would not be consistent with die damage as the areas in between the raised lines seem level or close to it with the fields on the coin, which would mean there would have to be extra metal on the hub making the effected area more level with the fields.

Idk mayb I'll just walk away from this lol, have it chalked up to Feeder Finger Damage as it causing my head to spin and I have not had enough experience with American dollar coins or Feeder Finger Damage.
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When polished out they could look something more like this over polished example:
2010-P-Sacagawea-Error-On-Neck
2010-P-Sacagawea-Error-On-Neck

If these marks from a clashed die, here is an overlay:
2010-P-Sacagawea-Error-On-Neck

Of course the exact polishing could include more than just the clashed area.
Edited by coop
12/17/2021 6:23 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3328 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  3:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks coop, rules out clash, and a basic, over polishing again the main reason I'm so curious is how the coin looks to the 1990 bare belly beaver which has no conclusive answer on the Canadian side as to what caused it. Though I know a lot of research went into just thinking of possibilities. The idea of an error without a defined cause bugs me lol.

With the Canadian side the error has several different varieties with more or less severity and one theory I'm not qualified to get into as I have not done the research in that area.
Edited by Wrekkdd
12/17/2021 3:45 pm
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HGK3's Avatar
United States
573 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not entirely sure how the hub comes into the analysis of the error on the coin since the hub is used to make the die and never comes into contact with the planchet or the coin.

Nevertheless, here are a few examples of similar coins:

http://goccf.com/t/336856

http://goccf.com/t/186093

http://goccf.com/t/313074

All contain coins with Feeder Finger Damage on the devices, especially on the low spots of the devices.

Pillar of the Community
Canada
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 Posted 12/17/2021  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I doubt there is an area of effect overlay where the feeder finger would come into contact with the hub when possible? The fact that's it's almost centered on the coin also makes me question Feeder Finger Damage. But I guess if the hub was extremely polished and down and then the damage occured it could be possible but I like conclusions over possible causes. I have obsessed a little over it for a while due to the 1990 Canadian nickel. Maybe it's a good thing though because it did cause me to research topics I didn't think of before.


Edit:I keep calling the hub a die.
Edited by Wrekkdd
12/17/2021 3:54 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
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 Posted 12/17/2021  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe it's different terminology over here, I though the master die made a master hub, from there the master hub made the working dies, and the working dies created the working hubs. Again mayb I have my terminology mixed up when it comes to the die making process. I thought the working hub was what struck the coin. Is it the the hubs that creat a working die? Or die that creates the working hub? Or does it differ from USA to Canada?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3328 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the terminology is backwards I apologize. So a master hub creates the master die, then the master die creates a working hub, and the working hub creates the working dies, not vise versa? And thanks for the examples.
Edited by Wrekkdd
12/17/2021 4:04 pm
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Dearborn's Avatar
United States
96842 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Will this turned into a nice discussion here. I'm glad that I was shake to point out the extending lines that went beyond the obvious one that at on the neck. Feeder fingers is what I was thinking but could not come up with that term.

"My mind is going. Dave, I'm afraid"
Edited by Dearborn
12/17/2021 4:48 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3328 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  4:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ya I think I'm going to agree with Feeder Finger Damage and walk away from this one. It's one of those situations that I'm probably way overthinking lol, I do always enjoy the debates but I feel like this in not my place to debate error wise on this as my experience with dollar coins is little to none lol,I gained an interest on the topic comparing it the a Canadian coin that may or may not have anything to do with this error and just looks similar, trying to answer a question that even are finest error gurus on the Canadian side could not give me a clear answer on.


To clear up my terminology, I had hub and die backwards. No wonder I was causing confusion, my apologies. And ya just noticed the overlay is not the correct on thanks for pointing that out.
Edited by Wrekkdd
12/17/2021 4:28 pm
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Cujohn's Avatar
United States
7174 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cujohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, you have the wrong reverse overlay.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3328 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2021  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the new overlay coop, still does not match up with this coin, so Feeder Finger Damage has to be the only answer? The feeder finger feeds the planchette into the die, is there a possible overlay for a feeder finger? Just like anything else the effected area should match up with the feeder finger and where it could possibly connect with the die. The area affected is almost completely centered on the die and coin, I can't see how the central area of the coin or die would be affected like this by the feeder finger.

Edit:idk why I keep trying to dig on this topic but as with anything all areas should be covered with evidence as to exactly how it happens. The feeder finger holds the coin and out of any spot that should not be effected it's the very center of the coin. It would be nice to know exactly what parts of the feeder finger could come into contact with the die.
Edited by Wrekkdd
12/17/2021 6:49 pm
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Chase007's Avatar
United States
7513 Posts
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2021  10:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had an issue with the single images and had to redo the overlay. But the these eliminate the little devices as most times they don't appear on the clashes.
2010-P-Sacagawea-Error-On-Neck
2010-P-Sacagawea-Error-On-Neck
2010-P-Sacagawea-Error-On-Neck
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