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What Is The Oldest Slabbed Copper Coin With Red (Rd) Mint State Colour?

 
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Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2023  3:49 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Greetings to all! The last couple of months I have come up with a question that still bothers me.

What is the oldest slabbed copper coin with red (RD) mint state colour designation? It is a question that I have asked to many people and coin media, but still I have not an accurate answer. This question can be categorized as a "condition rarity" question and after long analysis I think the only way to reach an answer is by observing and find out what is the oldest coin slabbed with and RD designation.

We must take into consideration that original mint state colour is something that happens when the coin is strucked and the planchet is still "fresh". If the coin gets a lot of "touches" and with the fact that the copper reacts with oxygen, the colour will gradually turn from red (RD), to red-brown (RB) and eventually brown (BN). So we should examine coins that are mostly graded, as photographs can easily be modified or be taken by a misleading angle. That is also why, I created this topic at the TPG category segment, too.


I searched a lot. Firstly, I asked Chat GPT what is the oldest RD coin and it replied (eventually not accurately) a British Penny of 1799 which was graded MS64RD. Generally, the only interesting topic I was able to found was on a U.S. forum [I think of PCGS's forums.collectors about what-is-the-oldest-slabbed-copper-coin-that-has-the-red-designation) Sorry system didn't allow me to put the link. With a simple google search I think you can find it]. From there, I narrow it down to an 1/2 Penny (Hibernia) 1723 which was graded as MS64RD PCGS.

I contact local coin dealers and grading company representatives in my hometown, I asked various coin groups and I even send email at NGC and PCGS. PCGS somehow gave me the impression, that I have found the oldest copper coin that they have graded as the one of 1/2 Penny of 1723 MS64RD PCGS, but NGC told me that they weren't able to search THEIR OWN SYSTEM to find what is the oldest copper coin that they have graded with an RD designation...

The reason that I am asking is that approximately a month ago, I learned about a coin that I had sent a some months ago for grading. The coin was a Venetian 6 Bagattini (1619-1649). I send it mostly to encapsulate it and try my best to retain the exquisite colour it had. Eventually after my inital thoughts that the grade would be around MS62RB, it was graded MS64RD. Is it a candidate for the oldest red colour coin? Can this considered a true condition rarity? What is eventually the oldest slabbed copper coin with red (RD) mint state colour? I stopped (besides the one in picture) at 1723.

Thank you all in advance for your time to read my post. My warmest greeting from Athens, Greece.

P.S.: Sorry for the blurry photo but after crop after crop led to this.

Edited by malef13
04/01/2023 3:53 pm
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 Posted 04/01/2023  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well that certainly beats out any of the early 18th century coppers I had in mind.
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 Posted 04/01/2023  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice coin!


Quote:
I send it mostly to encapsulate it and try my best to retain the exquisite colour it had.


Unless they have changed something, slabs are not airtight. This has been a common misconception for awhile. But like I said, I do not know if there has been a recent change in this.

The best preservation for a coin is a coin capsule or a 2X2. The reason being they both limit air coming into contact with the coin's surfaces best.

Storage such that humidity is controlled is going to go the furthest in preserving such a coin.
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Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2023  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Well that certainly beats out any of the early 18th century coppers I had in mind.


For many many years I was thinking that the oldest copper coins with RD colour were about late 1700's - early 1800's. But eventually, I have observed quite a number of copper coins mostly from Austria-Hungary that have made their appearance. Although, it is kind of mathematical chance of probability if and when you will find a red coin on that type of mini-hoards/rolls which will have the original mint state colour.

The story of the one I have, after some research, I think it is kind of the same. With many differences, but the "core" is somewhat the same.
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 Posted 04/01/2023  6:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have yet to understand why,
but I have seen perhaps a dozen or more copper and bronze coins of the 19th Century in mint state, with full red, over about a 50 year period of my collecting experience.

This coin may? have been chemically cleaned by an expert at some time or other, but I am inclined to believe that this is not the case.

I like the cameo patination, - perhaps it was wrapped in bleached paper for a short time.
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Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2023  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Very nice coin!


[Quote:
I send it mostly to encapsulate it and try my best to retain the exquisite colour it had.]


Unless they have changed something, slabs are not airtight. This has been a common misconception for awhile. But like I said, I do not know if there has been a recent change in this.

The best preservation for a coin is a coin capsule or a 2X2. The reason being they both limit air coming into contact with the coin's surfaces best.

Storage such that humidity is controlled is going to go the furthest in preserving such a coin.


Thank you very much!

I am aware of the fact that slabs are not airtight. I think that still nothing has changed. But given the circumstances I thought and still think that slabbed is the most ok option.

After some years that I am into coin conservation I have observed sometimes that when a coin is encapsuled on the normal circle capsules there is a change on the look of the coin. When you close the capsule it traps the air that remains inside and that can alter the surface of the coin. Also, when you encapsulate a coin the conditions inside of it can not be controlled in order to protect it from humidity.

The option that I think is the best to preserve the coin as good as possible (and is what I did) is to get the coin certified and as the slab is not airtight (a good think) to place silica gel in order to minimise the humidity. I have stuffed it with silica gel.

Is anyone aware of somebody that could have access on PCGS's or NGC's grading system that could find out the oldest RD coin?
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Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2023  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have yet to understand why,
but I have seen perhaps a dozen or more copper and bronze coins of the 19th Century in mint state, with full red, over about a 50 year period of my collecting experience.

This coin may? have been chemically cleaned by an expert at some time or other, but I am inclined to believe that this is not the case.

I like the cameo patination, - perhaps it was wrapped in bleached paper for a short time.


Greetings! I have seen in my eight years of involvment in numismatics many red coins of the 19th century. The question is what is the oldest red one?

The coin has not been chemically cleaned. That is something that TPG's almost immediately examine and will "cut clear grade" of a coin with the indication of altered colour. Actually the coin's history after my research, indicates that noone has touched it probably for centuries. It was just the "survivor" of extremely low chances to be found as such.

Indeed the eye-appeal is mesmerizing especially in hand.
Edited by malef13
04/01/2023 6:50 pm
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1833 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2023  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's an amazing coin!

One quick comment on preservation; in addition to controlling the humidity where my coins are stored, I try to protect against possible pollutants in the air. This can be particularly important if you live somewhere with poor air quality or if there is a smoker in the house.

Several years ago I remember seeing a study (no clue now where I saw it) where slabbed coins were exposed (I believe) to sulfur oxides and that did eventually cause toning on previously red copper or white silver coins in slabs. The exposure was to a very high level of the gases but the purpose was an attempt to approximate long-term exposure to lower levels of sulphur oxides as might be present in the air around, say, a refinery.

I use Intercept Shield boxes for my slabs as a bit of an extra precaution. Overkill? Possibly, but it's minimal cost and gives me a little extra peace of mind...
Edited by hokiefan_82
04/01/2023 7:02 pm
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 Posted 04/01/2023  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gotta love that, congrats!
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1217 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2023  03:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slerk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The option that I think is the best to preserve the coin as good as possible (and is what I did) is to get the coin certified and as the slab is not airtight (a good think) to place silica gel in order to minimise the humidity.

I also think TPG certification is the best storage option. I am very sensitive to coins made of copper or copper-coated. I hope my flip 2x2 is suitable for this.

It 's called flip , isn 't it ?
Edited by Slerk
04/02/2023 03:14 am
New Member
Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2023  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's an amazing coin!

One quick comment on preservation; in addition to controlling the humidity where my coins are stored, I try to protect against possible pollutants in the air. This can be particularly important if you live somewhere with poor air quality or if there is a smoker in the house.

Several years ago I remember seeing a study (no clue now where I saw it) where slabbed coins were exposed (I believe) to sulfur oxides and that did eventually cause toning on previously red copper or white silver coins in slabs. The exposure was to a very high level of the gases but the purpose was an attempt to approximate long-term exposure to lower levels of sulphur oxides as might be present in the air around, say, a refinery.

I use Intercept Shield boxes for my slabs as a bit of an extra precaution. Overkill? Possibly, but it's minimal cost and gives me a little extra peace of mind...


Thank you very much!

Yes indeed apart from humidity the general air quality must be checked. Thankfully noone in the house is a smoker.

I didn't know exactly what Intercept Shield boxes were. I searched thanks to you and it is not a bad idea. Thank you!
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Greece
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 Posted 04/02/2023  07:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Gotta love that, congrats!


Thank you very much!
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Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2023  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I also think TPG certification is the best storage option. I am very sensitive to coins made of copper or copper-coated. I hope my flip 2x2 is suitable for this.

It 's called flip , isn 't it ?


I share your sensitivity on copper coins too!

I think yes, they are called flip. In Greece we call them "flipakia".


Does anyone have an idea that could help answer the question? Maybe somebody you know?
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 Posted 04/13/2023  01:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you really want to ensure a coin cannot lose its brilliance you need to place it in something 100% airtight AND ensure that when it is encapsulated it is done with an inert gas such that no air or moisture is enclosed inside. Then store it in a dark place with a stable temperature (any decent safe or safety deposit box for example).
New Member
Greece
12 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2023  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malef13 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you really want to ensure a coin cannot lose its brilliance you need to place it in something 100% airtight AND ensure that when it is encapsulated it is done with an inert gas such that no air or moisture is enclosed inside. Then store it in a dark place with a stable temperature (any decent safe or safety deposit box for example).


Thank you very much for your advice. I have proceed on ensuring the conditions that the coin is kept are as good as possible.

The main thing of the post is if sb can help on to clarify what is the oldest RD graded ever. Unfortunately still I have not end up in an answer.
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