| Author |
Replies: 90 / Views: 6,084 |
|
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote: I don't care who or how many folks say otherwise, those impressions were caused by a die fragment of denticle impressions caught between planchetless dies.... there is no other possibility, not tilted dies, not drunks banging dies together, not any other notion of nonsense. Agreed, the visible evidence supports only your conclusion. The chances of such a thing happening, though, seem remarkably slim which is why I'm willing to listed to alternatives. There's just nothing else which would make such a mark, though. That must have been spectacular to witness.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 3660 Posts |
Actually, I think that full Cuds and denticle impressions could have quite a bit in common. edited to add: Quote: I'm willing to listen to alternatives. Yes, I also, however, as of this date, I have yet to hear anything even remotely possible..... This is not to say that my word is the omega, but a small chunk of die is my only suspect.
Edited by zeewool 01/07/2011 9:57 pm
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:Actually, I think that full Cuds and denticle impressions could have quite a bit in common. Absolutely. The missing part which allows a full Cud is the same part which causes the denticle impressions. And there's more than one spectacular Cud among the 1921's, for instance - 1921-P VAM-19 has a huge Retained Cud spanning the MERI of AMERICA - had a coin struck after the piece completely dropped away been allowed out of the Mint, 1921-D VAM-1x would be forgotten. Golly, it's tough to concentrate on typing a point with Kaboose blaring on the stereo.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 3660 Posts |
Kaboose? I don't know what to think about that...  Yeah, that is just one more reason that I have thought that the 1X was a fluke in leaving the mint.... and there will never be another found..... folks are really looking at Morgans now.... far more than in the past.... and that 1X can be picked out from across the room... Somebody was off today 'eh?
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Kaboose is a Christian Hip Hop artist. I don't necessarily buy his message, but his beats are insane if you turn 'em up loud enough.  1X is, in my mind, almost certainly unique. The Mint's quality control was generally better than that. With that said, if there was one mistake there could be others, and the resulting coin is something which would likely be handed down as a family heirloom and never reach the market except by chance. There will be more discoveries. "Stiff Upper Lip," by AC/DC. 
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 3660 Posts |
Yeah, when there are, family collections is where they'll be found.
You must live in the country too 'eh Dave? I have no neighbors within eyesight or earshot..... I have heard of AC/DC, but would not recognize the sound unless someone pointed it out to me..... never even heard of Kaboose.... have you heard of Train?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Calling on Angels Zee, much GOOD speculation going on here, After reading up on the Longacre Idea  It doesn't add up to me...but that's another story....I do think the dentil idea is very plauseable, and as mentioned, could explain why V1X came to be, with the exception as why all other years with Dentile impressions had no VAM X for those years.....one must think////it must have caused a terrible clatter so that the operator must have had to shut down and PERHAPS look at the coins that were minted and pull them off line and send them back to be remelted...as this was supposed to be the process...Great stuff here.. All on the theory side but that's why we think not only about NOT just the VAM, but rather the process that explains why we have vams in the first place...
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote: have you heard of Train? Yes. Like Five For Fighting, Yes, Winwood and a few others, they are in my *private* rotation that I only listen to when I'm only listening to music. It is fatuous to believe that we have even scratched the surface of what is held in private collections/hoards/groups. Millions of Morgans are extant. We, the collecting world, are only churning a certain percentage of them, and we haven't cherrypicked that percentage yet. Heck, I've got my radar on half a dozen I know haven't been identified, and you'll slap me on the back if I show any of them here. And I'm only watching a few dates. The future of Morgan dollars may well still be held in hands who have no clue what they own. It is only through luck, or death, that we'll ever get to see them. This is one of the factors I'm considering when I say that the job will not be done in our lifetimes. Edit: Gene, if you want Train you want Drops of Jupiter. Google the backstory, and you'll know what I mean.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 3660 Posts |
Although you may be 100% correct, I don't really see it like that Gene.... I don't think that the press itself was too noisy... I suspect that the steam engines used to power the presses overshadowed any noise that the press made... I might think that even a clash would not have made too much racket as it was just a tap (rather than the violent event that we were led to believe elsewhere). I imagine that the press operator never knew anything was wrong unless there was a visual clue or the press stopped unexpectedly..... I think that the primary function of the press operator was to keep the coin tube from running dry, and keep one foot on the clutch ready to disengage the press in case of some major malfunction.... someone else came around and gathered the coins from the coin boxes under the presses, it was not the job of the press operator to inspect or gather coins.
The coins were then taken to a room (the 'reviewing room', I think it was called).... there they were inspected individually for errors and counted, and placed in bags of 1000, and the bag weighed.... the 1X should have been caught right there.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Just google back, Got to pay....anyway...its all good...
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote: there they were inspected individually for errors and counted, and placed in bags of 1000, and the bag weighed Weighed before bagged, I suspect, so lights and heavies could be accounted for. Remember, 125 years ago they weighed $1000 bags to tolerances which would be difficult today, and had 4 weight grades for "acceptable" Morgans to create $1000 bags within two tenths of an ounce. In the 1880's, Philly had a scale which would weigh 6000 ounces to an accuracy of 5 grains. Converted, that's 2.9 million grains with an accuracy of 5. I think the noise pollution was more about so many presses in one room rather than the power source. They sourced power from one big engine, using belts; the engine would have been on another floor. With that said, I wholeheartedly agree that a clash probably didn't sound so much different from a strike. We know there were a lot of events in Morgan striking - die cracks, breaks, clashes and the like tell the story - so I'm inclined to suspect the press operators were more visually aware than possibly given credit for. I would dearly like to know the "return to melt" rate of some of these issues.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 3660 Posts |
Now that all makes perfect sense to me Dave... 
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Very interesting point SD...as the age of machines or the industrial revolution was well under way,FOR MORE THAN 50 years, the noise factor could easily be turned to VISUAL persception, if they were paying attention....
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Honestly, at this point in life my greatest ambition is to go on sabbatical to Carson City, to learn to operate Press #1. I would give anything to learn that machine up close and personal. I understand steam engines and industrial steam power transmission; they weren't all that darn noisy and in a big factory the sound of flapping belts was sometimes the biggest noise pollutant. One standalone press wouldn't sound much different operated electrically than via steam and belts. All the same, it was a different time, a different era. We cannot estimate just what the prevailing work ethic was like - we have only written records, few of which are subjective opinion. I like to think that the Mint employees, by and large, understood that they were engaged in important business of the United States of America, and saw their job as a source of pride. We know beyond doubt that there was a whole lot of die failure and anomalous events in the mintage of Morgan dollars, yet vanishingly few radical errors ever reached circulation. Off the top of my head, I can think of very darn few, and most of them are '21's.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I see I forgot to mention, the abillity to have the weight of the coin...was perfected since the early 1500's in which as you point out the measure was not examined by the coin but rather by the Bag or buy the thousand lot, and it w2s not to be deviated or the lot was turned back and remelted...and re-coined..
|
| |
Replies: 90 / Views: 6,084 |