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 Replies: 25 / Views: 3,695 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
They all get this chronically wrong... This is the common type, "inverted FM". People get confused b/c of the issue of flipping the assayer letters vs. transposing them. Whatever you want to call it, this is the more common type. Nice piece, but looking at the hammer price, someone undoubtedly thought they were getting the much rarer "inverted MF", which the slab wrongly claims this piece to be... Sold for $2500 incl. BP... So what are we talking, something like a $1300-1600 error?  |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
That's a pretty strong price even for the MF variety. I'm guessing the buyer is going to try and cross it into an MS holder.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1610 Posts |
PCGS should hire you, realeswatcher. You would do 10 times better at identifying these coins than the others who work there.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1962 Posts |
Loupe, I'm nothing near an "expert"... any of the well-versed Spanish collectors here could ID this coin correctly. I understand it's not easy to know everything world, but they ARE paid professionals, and Spanish Colonial is one of the more popular collecting areas here in the U.S.
Kopeiki, looking just at the quality of coin (ignoring attribution), a crack-out wouldn't be totally crazy. It's definitely a "58+"... would have to maybe see it in hand. Here's the thing, though... Even if the buyer if thinking that's a lock 63, given the hammer price, the buyer MUST be thinking it's the "MF", not common "FM", right?
So, we have someone savvy enough to drop $2500 on a coin and try the crackout game, who doesn't know the difference between MF and FM? Strange, no? I'd say maybe it was simply someone who's loaded buying a pretty coin they liked... but who bid them up?
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
It's not the upside-down V's as A's on the obverse variety, either.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
That is a major mis-attribution on the TPGs part. Where did this coin sell that someone paid $2500? Did the auction house mis-attribute the coin as well? What did the description read for the coin? I have met collectors and dealers who make this mistake but the TPGs are supposed to know their stuff.
That aside, TK, have you ever actually seen the variety with the upside down "V" instead of the "A"?
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
jfransch, only an image in Calbeto. Have you encountered it in-person before?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=29057"Carlos III 8 Reales 1772 Mo-MF, inverted assayer initials, KM106.1, AU58 PCGS Cayon-12000. Great coins, flawless reverse and extremely scarce type. Krause catalog price(s) for this item: $225 in VF, $350 in EF." So, the Cayon #12000 and the Krause prices shown refer to the common "FM" variety... BUT the title and description reiterate the "MF" nisnomer (which among those who know specifically refers to the rarer variety, NOT this one) that the PCGS label uses. Describing it as an "extremely scarce type" would also seem to connote the "MF", not the common "FM". Compare this to a previous example from Heritage... PCGS made the same mistake, but the cataloguer pointed out the error - "PCGS has this as 1772-MF, but this is FM": http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=14251**** Aside from the upside down V's for A's... Have any of you ever seen mention of a 1772 with correctly aligned FM and mintmark? I thought I read somewhere (maybe the PCGS forum?) that it is known to exist, and is obviously extremely rare. Is this correct?
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Realeswatcher, I remember reading a few years back that there are only 2 specimens known of the 1772 normal assayer and mint mark. One of them is in the Bank of Mexico collection. I have not seen one in person yet.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
That's a pretty strong price even for the MF variety. I don't usually look carefully at the higher-end auction examples of the MF, but I from more pedestrian examples seen in covering ebay frequently: 1) 1772 is a scarcer date in general, and I think more desirable anyway as the first date of the series. Krause (at least my older one) only reflects this in the prices for higher grades, but in lower grades the usual 1772 "inverted FM" definitely brings a solid premium over the Charles III dates after it. That said, I still feel the price paid for this example in question reflected someone thinking that it WAS the scarcer variety, MF. 2) MF is pretty tough to come by... IF people felt this piece was a lock UNC, the $2500 figure, I don't "think", isn't all that insane. Look at this example from a while back. Note that they actually called it "FM", but given that condition/price, clearly whoever bought it recognized it was MF: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=21442Total guess on this: maybe "1 in 15", or "1 in 20" 1772 pieces you see is the "MF", not the "FM"? Every time I notice even a dreck example come up, they seem to bring very strong prices. There was actually a worn but very decent MF mixed in with one of those endless group lots in Heritage's Mexico section yesterday... I got outbid, and I was too frazzled trying to catch up with all of those lots (didn't know there were so many!) to realize I could've bid a good chunk more. |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Looks like some here will post their new Heritage acquisitions soon :)
I've scored some early catholic king reales which I was missing (I had the later ones only), and a Ferdinand VII 8 reales LVO (the cheap one, not the >1500 use one)
I wish I had pushed harder on last week part, for the star of Lima (which went for a decent price compared to the next Crusafont sale in spain for example, which got a starting price way higher than the closing price on heritage ...)
Plus two other Ferdinand VII coins at the last Ponterio sale :)
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
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I'd say maybe it was simply someone who's loaded buying a pretty coin they liked... but who bid them up? sometimes, winning bidder is also the owner in disguise just to make a "high amount - record of the coin". Though the above specimen is a beauty, its price is high. |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Misattributed for sure, but still a superb coin - the Goldberg pictures are superb :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
By the way ... this does appear to be a mint error and not a contemporary counterfeit of any sort ... I did XRF analysis on the 2 Reales FM inverts and all are regal silver. The execution of these is so high ... I agree its no surprise at all ... Never XRF analyzed an 8 R FM invert but these are interesting ...
John Lorenzo
Numsimatist
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Replies: 25 / Views: 3,695 |
Posted 01/11/2012 8:23 pm
