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1882 CC VAM Help Please

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Bedrock of the Community
GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 08/18/2012  6:55 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I bought this Morgan dollar with a few other coins with the intention on reselling them. I thought I should check to see if I could figure out which VAM it might be first.

Again I am not sure if my pictures will be good enough for the experts to help with the identity, I will try to explain what I am seeing. It seems harder to take pictures .. when the coin is in a holder.

I am leaning toward a VAM-2C ...or the VAM-2C1 .. VAM-2C2

Thank you for any opinions you would like to post



1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

The date does have the doubled date (prominent in the second 8, with die chip)
1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

Liberty's hat does have where the die clashed shows
1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

Can see the same die clash damage on Liberty's Lip. (same as VAM-2C
1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please


Mint mark seems to me, to be the same shape and angle as the VAM-2C, with the die "polish lines inside the first "C"

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

Polish lines inside the "E"
1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

The picture does not show this well .. there are two die gouges going from the wing to the wreath
1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  01:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I can't say for certain due to the pictures, but VAM 2C needs the lip clashes which I do not see, so I am leaning towords the 2b series...MIND you, there was some polishing between these series that I haven't had time to explore yet, but very much part of the evolution of this series...If I have time tommorrow I will check it out, as I get home very late...
G
Bedrock of the Community
GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  07:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I understand the pictures .. the coin is still in the GSA holder ..
I had trouble getting a good picture .. maybe I can try again

In hand I see the lips clashes .. I noticed that before I went to VAM world

Thanks for any help
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  5:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How many clashes show in the area of the last pic?
Bedrock of the Community
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 Posted 08/19/2012  6:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How many clashes show in the area of the last pic?


For me it is hard to see what has clashed in this area.

I am thinking this is one of the area's VAM world talks about being polished .. after clashes.

I took some more pics. I tried to tilt the coin a little, in hope to show the detail a little better.

I think this picture shows what I think are two die gouges that go from the right wreath (near top) and the eagles. wing


1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
Bedrock of the Community
GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I took a few more of the lip clash. I don't seem to have the ability to capture how it really looks. I does look exactly like the picture on VAM world (VW) under VAM-2C. Not just the lips but also the polish/cleaning marks are above and below the lips .. just like the VW pics.



1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those aren't die gouges - they're the massive multiple rotated clashes of the 2C series. Silly, aren't they?

Question for you: is the reverse rotated at all, relative to the obverse?
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GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Question for you: is the reverse rotated at all, relative to the obverse?


If it is rotated it is just slightly .. I might have to get into the safe and get another one to compare ..
I could go either way .. slightly or not at all ..



1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please

It is starting to get dark out .. so I lost some light

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GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to say I am not very good at this .. I stopped looking when I got to VAM-2C

I just now looked at VAM-2C2, the coin I have has a die scratch (not sure if that is the right term) that runs from the left wreath, through two leafs on the branch that the eagle is holding then back to the wreath.

Edit .. went back to VAM basics .. that line might be part of ("transfer from the front of the profile")

I can see it better in hand than my pic shows

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
Edited by GR58
08/19/2012 8:55 pm
Bedrock of the Community
GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Those aren't die gouges - they're the massive multiple rotated clashes of the 2C series. Silly, aren't they?


Mr. Dave I guess silly is a pretty good word .. after you posted that, I looked harder .. to try and make out what made the marks .. that is pretty cool ..

And what I thought was die gouges I am guessing are the cap. One line was a die clash .. the second was another die clash when the die is rotated a little.

I am thinking it is something like that
Edited by GR58
08/19/2012 9:25 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 08/19/2012  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, the die rotated over the course of the multiple clashes. Later versions (2C3, 2C4) had a rotated reverse die and you'll undoubtedly find earlier rotated versions since the clashed rotated. I'm thinking yous is 2C2; is the break behind the cap complete? Can't quite tell from the images.
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 Posted 08/21/2012  07:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry Dave .. I missed your last reply somehow.


Quote:
I'm thinking yours is 2C2; is the break behind the cap complete?



I have looked back and forth at my coin and the 2C2 on VAM world and it seems to me theirs is a little more complete of a cap break. But very close to the same
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 08/21/2012  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So we'll call it 2C1-1/2.
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 Posted 08/21/2012  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So we'll call it 2C1-1/2.


Maybe I am just looking at it wrong. I will get it out of the safe and study it some more.

Tomorrow I think I will go to the camera shop. I saw on another post that I might be able to buy a adapter for my Cannon DSLR so that I could use my old Cannon A-1 lens.
I am thinking I might get better pictures that way.
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 08/22/2012  11:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well this is a case of the die is the die. Your coin is a mid die state of the Vam-2c1. When looking at many VAM's what most of us look at is a full die state. This is to say if the money coin is an EDS "early die state" then it needs to be and EDS not and EDS plus a little bit. The same go's for the later die states in most other VAM's.

Progression set collecting in some types of VAM's may bring a small premium on some but not many. When flipping coins keep in mind this, GSA holder coins in the 1882, 1883 and 1884 are very common. All but a less then hand full of "Rare" vams can be found in them.

In the 1882 CC you will find the Vam-3d listed as a Rare "R-7" coin but if you look on E-bay you will find 4 to 10 of them every week. It looks like all of this type never went into circulation and are no-where near as rare as it was listed. So look deeper into things before jumping, it could save you a bunch.
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 Posted 08/23/2012  01:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the questions I always have, AS DUE to the lack of real detailed photo's...especially in a die state progression is "Where is the line drawn?" between die progressions...
Thanks Russ for your explination....but I do have one one question
as it is a die study thingy...
due to the lack of real good close ups.from the originator of this post...I have had to go back to VAM 2c where the break started.......but VW does have an error in there number 4 photo, stating VAM 2a shows a cap break..
this is incorrect for the published VAM 2a series...
BACK to VAM 2c, where the break originates.......which shows the traditionalclashing on the reverse photo, one would EXPECT the neck clash to be present.... VAM 2c1 notes the die break and the neck clashes have been polished out,
with up to 4 clashing known at this point, but polished out,,,,Pics on VAM World VAM 2c1 do not show
any cap break, as it was removed due to polishing.....it is also known as the "9 degree's" rotation
...yet the break "RE-emerged" WHY? because the break above the die was
filed down, but the crack below the surface, was still there and "would resurface" in production....
So we know VAM 2c2 has the breaks and also still once again shows the evidence of many clashes.after polishing,
which would mean it again had more clashing for it to be evident....
Now my hole point of this is 2 fold.....
one to follow and understand the progression even if all of the photo's are not present on VAM World, yet our pictures still re there to fill in the blanks....
one of the statements was, there "could be more varieties still out there",
VAM 2c3 the dies were reset to Zero degree's rotation....
One of the first things I SAW, was when I looked at this coin,
and reviewed all of the photo's and descriptions. was evident in all VAM World photo's,...
is that the Cap die break, is evident from NON close up photo's...........
further more....its always in only one spot, as it should be,,,,
yet the originator of this post photo's from a non close up photo shows "another possible break"
about 1/2 inch up the cap........no other photo's show this
here is the originators photo, once again...

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
notice the overall OBV picture from a non close up perspective... the cap break is eveident as shown
from all known VAM World photo's as expected whith one exception...there is something above the break, perhaps an additional break not yet known?
here is the originators semi close up

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
now here is the copied photo he has posted,, enlarged and cropped to show the above possible new break above the cap.......

1882-CC-VAM-Help-Please
I am willing to go out on a limb here..."not to say so", but rather...in the die thingy progression states, Many important little things are not photoed or taken into account until we question them! That is why we ask such things... The author of this post, is just an average person who we must ask for macro photo's they may not able to produce, for those of us who delve and research into pimples if you know my meaning here... But here is the difference between VAM attributions...
And I must question...with a macro mind... G
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