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 Replies: 13 / Views: 4,600 |
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New Member
United States
3 Posts |
I am new and need help I recently purchased a El Cazador shipwreck coin. On the net the coin looked good and it came in a NGC cert case. The coin looks really shiny and there is a chip on the edge and white shows (almost like its just silver coated). There is also a speck of silver on the upper left that looks like it could have pealed off the coin. Before I give this to my dad who is a collector, I wanted ask the pros their opinion, fake or real.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Hello Willmd and welcome to the forum.
Your coin appears to be a real Cazador coin. Many of these coins were severely corroded from being in salt water and then harshly cleaned and polished by the salvage company in their first attempt to market them. Your coin appears to be one of those. Having it in the NGC case helps to confirm the providence of the coin. The value in this coin is the "sentiment" and "history" of having come from the Cazador Shipwreck.
While I cannot tell from the picture, my guess is the "white" spot you are referring to is actually where some of the corroded surface of the coin chipped off exposing the dull light grey color of the underlying silver where it escaped the polishing.
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New Member
 United States
3 Posts |
Thanks for the quick response, I feel much better. I bought the coin just because of the history. I added a better image of the chip and the other side.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
I have a similar Cazador 8 reale in about the same condition. I doubt there would be any reason to counterfeit due to the sheer volume of coins that were recovered. Not to mention the fact that higher quality coins are available at low relatively low cost.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Actually, there are counterfeits of the Cazador coins. I have seen several. The worst have seams around the edges. I am not saying this coin is a forgery. I simply can not tell. But I wanted to comment on the statement: Quote:
I doubt there would be any reason to counterfeit due to the sheer volume of coins that were recovered. Not to mention the fact that higher quality coins are available at low relatively low cost. There absolutely is enough of a margin on this coin to make it ATTRACTIVE as a forgery. A common low value coin is actually a better target than a high priced rarity. Think about it this way. The typical Cazador coin is in poor condition, already looks like a casting and is very available. A few originals can be used to make plastic dies for a few cents each and the casts will look like the originals. A die casting operation could easily operate 100 molds and produce several thousand copies a day. A debased silver cast can be made for about $15 and can be electroplated to simulate polishing. Of course a white metal casting works just as well and electroplating is not expensive. But since Cazador coins sell for $30 up. All you need is a distribution network to make a huge amount of money. So my position is that a profit margin of 100% on investment is a very good margin. In addition, there are SO MANY that a few hundred or thousand more cause NO SUSPICION. They barely get a glance from the graders so seeing a fake encapsulated would be of no surprise. Of course some forgers make their own plastic holders as well. I see the Cazador coins as a perfect scenario for a capable forger. If forgers can make a US dollar or a GR Pound coin and make a profit by circulating HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of fakes - why not Cazador coins? So my advice is do not get complacent - anytime you spend more that the value of the metal in the coin as melt - you invite a forger to try to steal from you. Successful forgers are usually not greedy. They operate below the radar. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3229 Posts |
Your coin looks fine to me. Many of these were really beat up. Because your coin is in a NGC slab it should have a number on it that you can look up:)
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New Member
United States
3 Posts |
Thanks for all the info/knowledge
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
willmd : could you post the numbers/writings on the box so we can check out what NGC has in their database ? (not sure how they handle shipwreck artifacts though ...)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bob - Just my Two Cents (as we discussed) normally these shipwreck coins when analyzed have extremely high silver contents and with the Beck silver surface enrichment scenario we get surface readings with XRF of ~ 98-99% Ag. Having said that the Cu and Pb normally leach out with this seawater action leaving behind an almost pure silver piece above the sterling level (92% Ag). When I see corrosion like this it could be a high tin CC but the low weight would be picked up in the NGC certification? Probably. Normal high tin CCs as we have seen do not have legend loss but are simply cast like in appearance and are erroneouly treated as garbage coins by collectors. Finally - I have not seen a plated shipwreck piece yet of a Birmingham Sheffield type nature ... I expect most Shipwreck slabs to be the real McCoy ... but of course what about the Class 2 types and PCGS/NGC ... <NVBG>. Its tough even with XRF due to the saltwater leaching effect and being only able to analyze the surface to make any conclusions coupled with some unknown weight loss below 26.5 grams. John Lorenzo United States |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
John, I completely agree with regard to counterfeits made some time ago. The Cazador coins are not Class 1 or Class 2. What I have been cautioning about are completely MODERN "made last week" Class 3 coins which are being cast to take advantage of the large number of these on the market. I do not know if I ever told you but a few years ago we had two modern cast copies - IDENTICAL coins (same damage -which is totally impossible) - with obvious traces of edge seams still visible. I do authentications of coins that come in so I was consulted. These two were brought in by a customer that wanted them slabbed. I took them home and did a written study as requested. The SG was too LOW and under magnification the edge seams and casting traces were clearly there. I informed the owner they were bad fakes but the owner thought they looked pretty good. They were in my opinion blatant forgeries. But because the customer insisted, the shop owner submitted them to ANACS along with a miscellaneous group of US and World coins. They were submitted with NO MENTION of El CAZADOR at all. Both coins came back certified VF 30 details attributed to the El Cazador. The owner said see - they are real. He knew based on my clues they were actually fakes but he also said he knew the graders would not look. That was my introduction to modern encapsulated forgeries. I called ANACS to complain and found that Mike Fahey was not in their employ at that time, but I spoke to the new head grader for world coins and he admitted that it was not normal practice to even check the edges for a seam. I told him what had happened and he actually blamed the dealer for sending them in. They (at that time anyway) relied on the dealer's opinion as part of the authentication process - including CLEANING. Makes no sense to me however. What the heck are they paid to do? I have since learned that the TPG guarantees are only to the current owner. The TPG goes back down the chain of previous owners (dealers) seeking recovery from them. So they in effect take NO direct responsibility for the inability to really identify a forgery. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Seems reasonable that any fakes here would be late or involves a seam third side such as an electrotype. Over a period of a year I did purchase two basic available denominations to XRF test - only (12) examples of 2R & 8R's with various levels of surface peeling (i.e., surface seawater corrosion) - all had these pre-printed signed certificate cards but none were NGC/PCGS)/ANACS slabbed so I could test the raw coin and not go through the platic which does throw off the XRF alloy impurity levels (i.e., trace elements) - all were 98-99% Ag as previously described - as we discussed and as in the forthcoming ANS BOOK - hard to imagine ANACS did not view the third side ... personally - I do not have much interest in these pieces - they are like novelty items - one is ENOUGH - makes a good gift, etc. ... send one down to me (fake) if you spot one in these certified packages ... I will do a write-up in the C4 Newsletter ...
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
01/04/2013 3:02 pm
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New Member
United States
5 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
I personally would not pay that for 3 Cazador 2 reales in that condition. Unless you have some extreme fascination with the Cazador wreck itself, you are over paying for poor condition 2 Reales coins. You might want to look for some nice non salvage 2 reales if it is the coins you are after.
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New Member
United States
5 Posts |
No fascination, just wanted to make sure I was getting a good deal and value the opinions on this board. Thank you!
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Replies: 13 / Views: 4,600 |
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Posted 01/01/2013 4:15 pm
