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 Replies: 47 / Views: 5,366 |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Thats a new definition of "Schroff's" for me. I am not saying its wrong but that in my research I have found it used in a very different context. In Yemen, Aden and surrounding locale Schroffs were the money changers
Edited by austrokiwi
02/08/2013 07:42 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, that 1805 is a modern fake. I don't have access to my saved pics right now (diff PC), but I'm certain this piece is of the same origins, for example, as the infamous "1776FF" 8R with the appearance, chip in the denticles, etc. that ties it clearly to certain other fakes... As I've mentioned b4, these have popped up in those Postal Commemorative Society and Treasures of the Caribbean holders, among other places. Also, being intentionally vague, look at the obv rim area of this piece, NW quadrant... telltale. Lean back and glance casually at it... :-> The one match I can find right now on ebay is about to expire from completed aucs.... note the same IDing bits and spits if you examine it closely, same rev center weakness, same compromised rims... http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-1805...200842634762 |
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Valued Member
 United States
462 Posts |
Hi realeswatcher, are you saying that ebay listing from aspencoins is a fake ? scary. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
For posterity:  |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Great discovery! I think my coin is same as the link provided by realeswatcher. But my coin was not bought from Aspencoins. Yes, is a modern counterfeit doubtlessly.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I believe that some of the newest of the forgeries coming out of China are actually Class 2 coins coming back to haunt the market a second time.
The line between Class 2 and 3 is at times very hard to draw even with XRF results.
Very few examples (comparatively) have proven by XRF to contain elemental traces that should be in Modern reclaimed silver refined after 1970. I really expected to see more in the "Modern Chinese Super Counterfeits". But in a number of cases the results are pointing more to 1870's silver than to 1970's or later.
It could be that it is the high Numismatic and intrinsic value of 8Rs that is finally shaking some of the old Chinese hoards free. Coins put away after the Nationalist edit of 1935 (which would likely have been made in the 1870--1910 era) would be coming onto the market now because of the original owners' deaths.
I have a lengthy list of trace elements I have been expecting to see but do not find in great numbers. We may simply be giving too much credit to the modern forgers when in reality it was the people who made these coins in 1900 that are the problem.
I expect that Aspen coins had no idea whatsoever. Most dealers do not. Most collectors do not. That is simple fact. Hopefully our book can start to open people's eyes to what really happened and how many of these are NOT genuine coins minted before 1822.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Swamperbob, there are two examples of 1805 "modern" counterfeit of the Class 2 restrike here.
Is it possible that the modern forgers actually imitate the real Class 2 CC rather than the original 8R to do this modern fake?
Of course, if my assumption is correct, there must be more Class 2 CC forgeries coming into the market. That must be waited to see...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The Class 2 silver copies and the Class 3 silver forgeries are essentially identical only the age is different.
What I was saying is that I had expected more of these coins to be made with "new" silver that could be identified by trace contaminants. That was NOT the case. So I suspect that more of the old Class 2 coins are still coming out of the woodwork in China.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, I'm certain I've seen this in Postal Commem holders... like the countless other dates appearing in their holders, this is (not particularly well-made) modern crap. Either they replicated these themseves or sourced them from Asia. Same idea with that Gulfstream Rarities outfit that (I have ZERO doubt based on numerous pics AND my in-hand example) replicated 1742-dated "salvaged" Netherlands Ducatons from the Hollandia wreck... and even 1715 Fleet half real pieces!! Modern fabrications....
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11951 Posts |
I was looking at a couple 8R coins that came into a local
coin shop today. After reading this post, I now know that I have no idea if I am looking at a real coin or not ..
The coins I was looking at are
1787 Mexico - looks like a well struck coin in better grade
1825 Bolivia - looks more crude or well worn
Both were less than a gram light, and did not stick to a magnet.
Before I purchase either of these coins I will try and compare them to some of the pics here.
What would the chances be that these are real or fake coins?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
GR58 If possible take a decent digital camera to the shop and take pictures. I do that all the time. I own a cheap Nikon coolpix P4 (probably not made anymore but it is my second camera that I travel with). Focal length is under 2 inches so no problem holding it to get a full screen shot that is not fuzzy and it auto focuses to produce an 8.1 mega pixel shot. Old technology I know they sell better cameras now for under $100. I keep checking. But you need a decent camera at a minimum. It is as critical as a scale if you want to avoid fakes and can not tell yourself. Regarding your question Quote:
What would the chances be that these are real or fake coins? That is a rather open question. I can tell you that we have located 6 different counterfeit varieties (Class 1 dated 1787) - all Mexico City; In Class 2 zero; Class 3 three with one from Lima and 2 from Mexico City all three class 3 coins are transfer impressions so they look correct. That does not mean 1787 is a bad risk. With ONLY 6 counterfeit varieties that is VERY low. Several dates have over 30 per date. So odds are likely with you. The 1825's fare better we do not record ONE of ANY CLASS. I have two suspects in my personal collection both with drill cancels that I suspect might be forgeries but I need XRF confirmation before saying so. So does that mean 1825 (which by the way can NEVER be Mexico) is safe. NO it does not. No date is safe. Therefore what does all that tell you - the 1825 MIGHT be the safer of the two but you ALWAYS need to check. Good luck show us photos.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, RE: holed Bolivia 1825 8R... that wouldn't be strange at all on genuine pieces. In fact, as far as the Potosi Bust minors (1/2R, 1R, 2R) in the 1810s-early 1820s, I'd say that at least a third of the "average circs" that you see are holed. Not as common on the eights, but not unheard of. Also, 1825 is a plentiful date (assayer JL, that is - J alone is pretty scarce). I know you believe in the idea that holing a piece was akin to scratching up the face - method of marking a known fake - but I'm not sure how much you can apply that to Central and South American pieces. FWIW, I also have never seen noticed any contemporary fakes of those late Potosi busts... nor any modern fakes. ===================== On another note... SPOTTED this morning!! 1806 (6, not 5), SAME EXACT reverse as on the 1805 wonghinghi posted (markers match), similar overall characteristics: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-8-RE...130846451180"Unlisted overdate"! Reminiscent of the, um, previously unknown, NGC Pop=1 1776-FF Mex 8R: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1-know...160966766677 Edited by realeswatcher
02/12/2013 09:48 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
I am lost here. What is supposed to make the 1776 MoFF "rare and 1 of a kind" in the link from Realeswatcher that was posted above? That is a common date/assayer. Am I missing something? The 1776 MoFM is actually a more difficult coin to find in high grade. ebay never ceases to make me shake my head in wonderment. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
There IS NO "1776-FF"! 1776 is all FM... 1777 is the transition. It's a commonly seen wrong assayer fake that's been mentioned before on here. The same distinct reverse markers readily link this "1776-FF" to other date fakes that are paired with that same reverse...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Missed the 1806 - from the edge dimpling looks like it was edged post "strike" or casting.
Not much doubt about the nature of that one.
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Replies: 47 / Views: 5,366 |
First Page
Posted 02/08/2013 08:23 am
