Modern Fake?

Excellent back-story on this coin. It is very similar to the Carolus 8R coin. There are a few issues from the early history of world trade that present a similar history.

Funny how numismatists keep forgetting these stories. It is a rediscovery of history that was once well known but is now forgotten.

These coins could be classified in a way similar to the 8R.

In particular what you say:




Now the issue becomes how do you tell which is which without XRF and how common are these alternative circulating versions? Are they a distinct and collectible class?

I have to agree with you that this coin looks particularly modern, but high grade early European coins often do.

I would be willing to bet that the originals were made on a roller press (standard for that era). The roller press used rather thin strips of metal that tended to bend as the design was imparted. The finished coins were punched from the strip. The process was the reverse of the 8R. So clues about edging involve the parallel grooves on the edge of a high grade coin. If punched they would be perpendicular and show no angular variation to the faces. If clipped the angle would vary and be irregular. Adjustments were made to the edge so some filing is likely depending on the standard tolerance.

I would look for a slight bend and at the edge very closely. Modern forgers rarely get those traces right.

Make sure the die surfaces are fairly smooth and uniform. The image formation on a roller press depends on the surfaces being parallel at all times and equidistant from one another. On a roller press the details are applied as the strip rolls through the press and the dies rotate. The impression is applied across the face at one time. Major flow lines tend to be directional and parallel to the rolling direction while the balance of the flow lines are minimal. Also look for traces of distortion along the axis especially of the letters and small features where a 360 degree perspective is visible at one time.

Modern forgers usually use flat presses because die replication from a rolled coin is difficult to duplicate. I do not know any who do that, but it is possible I would suppose.

Then I would compare engraving styles with other coins of the same denomination.

If after all of this it still looks real you might want to get an XRF test to see if any modern rare earth metals are found in the surface silver.

This is not a quick process when you start exploring new territory (or territory that has been forgotten) BUT you could be the person to retell this story and perhaps in the process create a new class of collectibles. It becomes your duty to become the teller-of-the-tale.

I located the following coin in MS 63 encapsulated by NGC sold for $207 on Jan 11, 2011 at Heritage.



Looks pretty similar to yours.

That is not to say either of the two is actually "genuine" they both may fall into the counterfeit category which I suspect they may. How long did these stay in circulation?

Sounds like you got a good deal.

I use Heritage and Stacks a lot when checking ebay auctions. Just last week a territorial gold coin appeared that had been broken out of a TPG holder. Heritage had sold it for $3220 as a "tooled coin". It appeared with no warning and was terminated as a fraud.

The access via the Internet is wonderful for checking.

Kiwi, I'd bet that your piece is from the shipwreck source that produced a quantity of these pieces. All are high-grade (essentially as struck) with slight sea-wear. Sedwick has offered these occasionaly and described them as from an "Unidentified ca.-1667 wreck off Sicily, Italy". He notes: "The unidentified shipwreck source of this coin and others like it also yielded Mexican and Spanish cobs."

http://www.icollector.com/Fosdinovo...rce_i8644915
http://www.icollector.com/search.as...igino&ps=100

Hi members, I would like to show you this Ragusa/Dubrovnik Republic 1794 2 Ducati. The portrait of this thaler size silver coin is always mis-interpretated as Maria Theresia but it is only a portrait imitating MTT for competitive trading purpose in Mediterranean region.

I have checked the S.G. of this coin a few days ago and it was measured as 9.78 which corresponds to about 55.33% silver fineness in my system. For other data (%Ag) compared with the known book value, I suppose my system had underrated the measured Ag fineness by 5% so the fineness of the following coin at most equals to 60%Ag. It seems un-reasonable for a Trade dollar coin had that low Ag content in that era. How could it compete with a real MTT by such a low Ag fineness?

As the World Coin Catalog does not state the Ag fineness of this coin, I hope someone who knows the actual silver fineness of this coin can tell me. Or, was there any cause that enabled this 2 ducati coin to debase? Of course, I hope this is another modern fake anyway. Any comments on this coin are welcome. Henry

"Naples" (as in Naples and all of the southern mainland) and Sicily each produced their own distinct coinage (under Spain) at that time... a luigino denomination was not produced by either of them.

Sedwick doesn't mention anything that links the shipwreck or the origin of the coins TO Sicily... they were simply found in a shipwreck NEAR Sicily (apparently clandestine, no other info). Could be from anywhere...