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 Replies: 18 / Views: 2,244 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
A few months back I wrote a "primer", if you will, on when not to get excited about "error" finds. Of course this only applies to those people concerned about future recovery of cost, time, and supplies to collect and store your coins. If none of that matters, then please explain to your heirs that you are collecting for fun and for them to spend your collection when you're gone. Why do I say that? Well, far too many people - and I've seen this a BUNCH of times - collect little anomalies from their pocket change because they are "neat" and never explain to their potential heirs that they aren't collecting coins for value. They are simply collecting conversation pieces that aren't important to most people in the market, they're just having fun. When the collector passes on, their heirs take the collection around to dealers hoping to cash in on their inheritance only to find out that the dealers are only willing to give a small percentage over face value for the entire collection. Why? Well, because the collector didn't study, didn't learn what's considered rare in the market, and spent all their time collecting "just for fun" - which is fine - but if they want to collect what's valuable, know what will bring profits to their heirs, and have fun at the sme time, I would suggest some self-education in true errors and die varieties such as doubled dies. Buy a few pieces, go to shows, look in places (like sealed bags) that might have treasure. Ask someone who knows about the subject and HEED WHAT THEY TELL YOU! I'm not saying that person needs to be me, there are a LOT of people out there who know what they are doing who would share their experience and time with you. I can tell you, however, that the first way to turn off someone who does know the subject is to argue with them when they tell you that what you've found has no premium value and should be treated as a normal coin for the date and grade. I know a dozen or more people in the market and when we go out to dinner at shows, etc., we talk about the same thing...Johnny collector brings in a die crack and think's he has struck gold. We discuss how we had to turn him away disappointed, and we all agree that the most annoying thing is when Johnny collector INSISTS what they have IS valuable. I'm not talking about people you wouldn't know about here...these people are authors and noted experts in the field and I have been blessed with the priviledge of knowing and sharing conversation with most of them. J.T. Stanton, Bill Fivaz, Ken Bressett, James Wiles, and others... A story - I am currently paying my son $5 an hour to de-holder a large collection of Lincolns given to me by a dealer because he simply didn't want to waste the time and trouble of de-holdering thousands of pieces of what amounted to pocket change. I looked through some of the mess and saw that each one was labeled, "die crack on head", or "double die" when in fact they were just Machine Doubling. Not one piece in the collection was actually valuable as a variety or error. Please people...for the sake of those behind you in the family tree...either stick to the true errors or die varieties that have some premium value, or TELL your heirs to spend your collection when you're gone. The worst thing I could imagine doing to my son is give him false hope there's money in my estate when there isn't. I'm not picking on anyone here...this is a lesson based on experience and true stories along with 30 years studying and being involved in the die variety market. It isn't changing...small flaws on coins that are a normal and tolerable part of the minting process are NOT valuable and are NOT going to pay the grand-kids' way through college. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
717 Posts |
CC,
I carefully read what you said. But at the same time, I'm reading "Stike It Rich With Pocket Change" by Brian Allen & Ken Potter, which seemes to be pointing out that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "little anomalies" that are worth money - some of it worth maybe $25, some worth $1,000. To the average guy, these "little anomalies" wouldn't even be noticable, but they are worth cash. So I guess there must be a "middle ground" between what you are saying & what he is saying.
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
The problem nowadays is supply and demand. I have some items I want to sell and there are on average 50 listings on ebay at a given time but only 5-10 are being sold. All are the same product....same type of listing. And sometimes it just takes the right person to buy some truly unique item that not many people are interested in. (Speaking of which....wanna buy a 5 foot wide 7-Eleven sign?)  The pricing guides to most things are an estimate of it's "value" not so much it's going street price. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
yechi7 - "Strike it Rich With Pocket Change" discusses scarce to rare die varieties that can be found in modern coins. Yes, it is true that they are in many cases difficult to spot, but there is a market for them. They are not considered "little anomalies" to the market.
The "little anomalies" I am pointing out are die clash marks, die scratches, gouges, cracks, small die chips, coins with rims worn down, coins that have been burned in fires, damaged and mutilated coins...all the stuff dealers consider "crap" for lack of a better term.
This brings us back to a difference in terminology that the knowledged students in the field all agree upon...that "errors" and "varieties" are NOT the same thing. 99% of the listings in the aforementioned book are varieties and die varieties - not errors. Varieties and die varieties are differences, doubling, and oddities in the design on the die that are there before the die is placed into the press to make coins. Errors cover almost everything else. If an "error" is difficult to spot, it's probably worth very little if anything at all. Many die varieties are difficult to spot and are still valuable. Reason? Because the dies are individually hand inspected before they are placed into service. It is known at the mint that the dies will strike upwards from a quarter million coins, and they need to be right. If care is not taken in this inspection process, a die with severe flaws (like doubling) can make it into the minting chamber and be duplicated on up to a million coins. They do what they can to keep this from happening for obvious reasons.
Small fissures in the die surface (cracks and chips), light clashes, polishing problems, minor struck-throughs (especially grease) are EXPECTED during minting and are allowed to pass through without worry. When these minor anomalies occur, nobody at the mint cares, the coins go into their tubs, and go on their merry way to the Fed Reserve bank for counting and rolling. In fact, from the time a coin is struck until you unwrap it in a bank wrapped roll, it is very likely that not one human has ever seen it in its finished form.
You can see how problems on dies during their creation and problems on individual coins differ greatly in importance with regard to the logistics of running a mint. This is why die varieties and minor anomalies on individual coins differ greatly in interest factor and value.
You've taken the first step - you've asked. I appreciate that. It shows you're thinking, sorting, and absorbing.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
717 Posts |
After reading your 1st above post, I was very surprised to read another post of yours from today on another thread: "I don't even try to give values for errors because I am not interested in them, I don't collect them, and I don't follow the market for them."  Edited by yechi7
05/20/2007 10:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
graceoutcast - Your point is taken - both of them...but neither have much to do with the fact that the die variety and error markets are pretty much set in what's considered collectible and valuable. It's not just a matter of supply and demand, although that does have some factor in the final result. The main question of the value of an error or die variety would be answered with one question..."Should it have been noticed and stopped at the mint?" Obviously a chain strike of five coins that jammed the press and created a monster set of unique coins that are not only severely malformed but aren't even round should have been caught and destroyed - but alas, they do exist in collector/dealer hands. They are VERY valuable because they escape the mint VERY infrequently. Monster doubled dies like the 1955 cent should easily have been caught when the die was hand inspected under a microscope. However, somehow the die made it into regular cent production and some 350,000 examples were likely struck before the die problem was discovered. It was only due to a shortage of cents and a backlog of work that they were allowed to circulate. Yes, the mint KNEW about them before they were bagged. Nonetheless, they are considered extremely valuable because the mint's release of such an "oops" on a die is VERY infrequent. Change subjects to a small crack in a die that runs through the bottom of the bust to the rim on your favorite denomination. The die didn't have the crack when it was new, so take out the inspection process. The crack developed while the die was making coins, but are still round, still fit through a hole made for the denomination, don't change the overall appearance and face of the coin, and will fit into a roll made for the coin's denomination. According to the mint, this would be considered a normal coin. They pass through the mint every day, all the time. Now...if you have 5 or 10 examples of the 1955 doubled die for sale, or maybe a few examples of chain strikes on your hands, offer all them up on ebay at once and see what happens. I bet every one of them sells the first time you run them and for market value. Run a half dozen "unique" die crack coins on ebay and I'd bet few if any of them sell even if you relist them. It's not a supply and damand factor there, it's a simple case of valuable coin against a normal coin being sold as something of value. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
yechi7 - It's true. I don't collect them and I don't follow the current market on them. That doesn't mean that I cannot recognize them. That doesn't mean I cannot tell when I see a coin whether or not it's a genuine error or whether it's a post-mint damaged or mutilated coin. I give values on die varieties, mainly just Lincoln Cent die varieties. This is because I buy and sell them all the time and know exactly what I am doing with them. I don't feel comfortable guessing at values of error coins because I don't buy and sell them. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
717 Posts |
"The main question of the value of an error or die variety would be answered with one question..."Should it have been noticed and stopped at the mint?" "
So, a die crack on a Proof, for instance, should definitely not have escaped from the mint?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Not every proof coin is inspected at the mint. The dies are inspected periodically, and any major imperfections are pulled from production - but die cracks are a normal part of the minting process, even for proof coins. The aftermarket for die cracks on proof coins is a very short-lived thing that usually generates on auction sites right after the release of a new issue, and are hyped way out of proportion. The market quickly rises and falls for stuff like this, and it is in large part due to a lack of understanding and knowledge among a pool of collectors who gauge their own niche market on the auction sites. Case in point, the "ghost 3" on 2003 proof cents. They had a huge beginner following when they first came out, and now generally not one word is spoken about them. The "phantom D" cents of 1997...same thing. The "speared bison" nickels...same thing. Coins like these rise and fall like the tides, but true errors and die varieties hold their value through the years, and actually increase in value with time. The ONLY exception to all of this I can think of is the VAM market which operates completely on a different set of rules. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
I should have added in that niche market on auction sites the shyster "dealers" who hype stuff up on purpose to make a quick buck - and it happens regularly. They see something on a coin and think they can convince enough people of what they see (sometimes through photoshop trickery) just to sell what they know is pocket change to unsuspecting novices who STILL tend to believe everything they read on the internet. It should come as no surprise that with the internet everyone has a certain amount of anonyminity, thus novice collectors who bid on auction sites don't know whether they are being taken by a shyster or are buying something of true value from a knowledged dealer or specialist. With that to wit, auction sites like ebay are not a good place to gauge value of anything you might find in a collection or group of coins. I might add that often these people are the same Johnny collectors who found something they think definitely is of value, send them in to have them attributed by every major service, are rejected because the coin obviously isn't what they say it is, and turn to ebay and play expert and sell them as such anyway. It's a free country and a free market, but this is one of the cases of people not listening to the folks who have devoted thousands of hours to studying the coins we spend and collect, and it burns my stomach to see them free to sell their hyped up stuff on the internet. Most of them have good stories, but that's all they are - stories. The people who buy the coins are getting burned because they don't know the subject, believe what they read, and haven't listened to the old adage, "buy the book before the coin." Edited by coppercoins
05/20/2007 11:27 pm
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
CC just out of curiosity's sake...how fast can you type? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Umm...about this fast?
Dunno, haven't been tested in many years, and back then it was around 60WPM. I figure it's somewhere between 70 and 80 WPM.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
By the way, I'm colorblind too...can be a real challenge for a professional numismatic photographer. Luckily my ten year old son is very well color sighted and helps me adjust my camera for each group of shots.
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
Hurray! That makes 4 of us!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
717 Posts |
CC,
I checked out your website. Your photos are beautiful. What do you use?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
The macro shots of Lincoln cents on my sales site (lincolncent.com)- a Nikon D80 with a 50mm macro lens. The micro shots of Lincoln Cent die varieties on my research site (coppercoins.com)- a Nikon Coolpix 5200 and a stereo microscope with an adaptor that fits over the eyepiece. In both cases I use a reostat controlled 180 watt halogen light with dual fiber-optic light guides for lighting. I purchased mine from Larry at https://www.coinoptics.com. I also use a couple of desk lamps with day-glow fluorescent 100watt equivalent bulbs when necessary. Re: beautiful photos...thank you! Just some eye-candy...  |
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Replies: 18 / Views: 2,244 |
Posted 05/20/2007 10:14 pm
