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 Replies: 10 / Views: 2,029 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Has anyone ever encountered a low weight contemporary counterfeit of these issues in a silver alloy issue? Just curious. In other words have you ever seen a debased silver contemporary counterfeit Mexican Proclamation Medal ever being sold at auction of the period?
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
I wouldn't expect to see contemporary counterfeits of proclamation medals.
I've seen these medals from Bolivia, Chile and Peru and I think they were all of standard silver because their weights and sizes corresponded to the contemporary circulation issues, however I've not had Mexican proclamation medals in my hand.
Could we have a picture, diameter and weight, please.
I note that there was a cast Costa Rica medal sold in Chicago this year.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Even though they may be referred to as "2R" size, "4R size", etc... the weights on these do seem to fluctuate widely from issue to issue... and seemingly sometimes within an issue. While clearly some pieces were designed to be a (near) exact correlation to a particular denomination, others seem so in between that you really can't call them anything (e.g., there was a Popayan piece last week whose usual weight seems to be around 11g).
Not Mexican, John, but I think I recall seeing at least one CC of the fairly common "8R size" Potosi (Bolivia) mountain style... I'm sure they exist at least for a few of the more common types.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Since I am not allowed to link to an E-Bay item see Sunday night after 10PM EST through my CCF name link. Its a debased Ag piece with tin that I picked up when visting Aureo & Calico this year in Barcelona with the family. Luis at A&C told me he has never seen an issue like this before at the firm ... since I do not collect Proclamation Medals I am selling it ... its made from the same dies as the silver issues but with high tin/low silver and therefore its underweight at ~ 19 grams as compared to 25 grams for the normal 90% silver issues. Good Pt & Au which was proportional to the low silver content around 30% (i.e., 0.01-0.1%). Not sure why it was debased ... A&C gave me a good deal on it since I spent some good money on purchasing their entire stock of CC8R's ~ 8 pieces at this time.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I don't see anything on your page ... I didn't knew we were not allowed to link to ebay auctions ? (we linked to many before, particularly counterfeits) |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
I've just been looking at Frank Grove's book - Medals of Mexico vol 2 - 1972.
He says "There are very few Mexican coins or medals which have not been counterfeited....."
Many medals are listed in silver but he doesn't state the fineness and doesn't always state the weight.
I can't now remember why I bought the book; perhaps I saw lots of Mexican medals for sale at the time, however, I didn't buy any.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
If you go to E-Bay now and put "Proclamation Medal" in the search box for Coins & Currency (EBAY-U.S.) you will see it posted or just click my E-Bay icon to the right of my screen name. There seems to be some interest in the piece. Its a good study piece since its made from regal dies.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Excellent overview. I think the Heritage cataloger also has to understand that Ag, Au & Pt is IMPORTANT to this piece and not just a confirmed debased silver value. We see this clearly in the recent Mexican Numismatic Association article I just wrote on the Chihuahua cast/re-strike pieces and the contemporary? counterfeit debased silver piece in this MNA study - this Heritage piece must contain Pt & Au but probably at reduced levels (i.e., 0.01-0.1%) since the silver value is around 25%. When the silver value is ~ 90% the Pt & Au is ~ 0.1-1.0%. The historical write-up as you say is fantastic. I believe this also happened in certain English issues which were debased due to economic and emergency issue reasons. Aureo & Calico gave me no real reason on the debasement of this Proclamation Medal - it was just sold to me as part of a consignment they kept for me knowing I was visiting their firm on vacation.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
I think the quote by Pertinax of Grove is referring to the fact that Mexican proclamation medals have indeed been forged for the numismatic market, but I am not aware of contemporary counterfeits based on their use as money.
Usually the forgeries are cast copies. Some Mexican proclamation pieces were restruck decades later at the mint and with official dies, these are usually in uncirculated condition since they went straight into collectors' cabinets. I would assume (and remember having heard so) that they have plain edges because the original dies for the edges were no longer available at the time of the restriking (and nobody would have cared anyway).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
OK. DosMundos thanks for the update. See if there is other information at the NYITL this upcoming weekend ...
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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,029 |
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Posted 12/28/2013 12:15 am
