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 Replies: 25 / Views: 3,789 |
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Pillar of the Community
778 Posts |
Here are 2 1718 four Reales from Seville. One has the numeral '4' (on the obverse), backwards. Well, backwards isn't quite the word I'm looking for. What is the term for a 'turned' numeral like this?   Thanks, Bill Edited by BillSnyder
01/24/2014 8:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Inverted is best I suppose (though I think the judges would accept "backwards"). Inverted (flipped or mirror image) sticks in my head b/c ppl always use the term erroneously to describe TRANSPOSED lions and castles (as seen on some Potosi cobs and others).
What is the weight of those pieces? Should be in the 10.__g range (devalued issue - the 1718 8R was as well... they returned the 4R and 8R to traditional weight in the 1720s, though not the 2R and below).
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Pillar of the Community
 778 Posts |
The one with normal 4 weighs 11.34gms; the other weighs 11.99gms.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
BillSnyder- I don't like that second coin one bit. The lettering bothers me - the "E" in "DEI" is absolutely malformed, the shape of the castles in the coat of arms is totally wrong (the sides are supposed to bow inwards rather than be a vertical line), and the lettering overall just doesn't sit right with me. So your backwards "4" is certainly indicative of this coin not being the real deal.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
Also, I'm looking at the second coin more and more. And I keep seeing details on the left image of the second coin that are totally wrong. Seriously, there are extra details, such as 3 Fleur-de-lis in the middle panel on the right side of the shield when there are only two on the upper coin. So many wrong details when you get right down to it.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
The bottom coin is about as genuine as a 3 dollar bill  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
trout1105-Yup! And the bottom portion of the coat of arms (where there are the four sections shaped like triangular pieces of pie)is way too large. It takes up nearly half of the overall coat of arms, as opposed to being about 1/4 - 1/3, and the angles of the "pieces of pie" are totally off.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Edited by realeswatcher
01/25/2014 01:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
778 Posts |
Humm. I bought the 'backwards' 4 one quite some years ago, as Calico #8107, from an auction in England. (The other, as Calico #8106, came earlier from a Spanish auction house). Shoulda stuck with buying Spanish from Spain.  Bill |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Archraz, trout1105 : maybe you are too used to modern US coins ... ? :) There are many variants on spanish coins - particularly when we are not on the "pillar style", and Krause doesn't list everything (actually, almost nothing). Even dedicated books don't go into such details (Calico and others) - I'm not even sure the transposed lion / castles on cobs is listed there (they are in books dedicated on them, as the one from Emilio Paoletti). Same for legend on those coins (check the second one I post) Here is another one for you, with the Fleur de lys on the wrong side of the shield. BillSnyder : don't think your coin is wrong yet :) I've seen that type as well, and it was not your coin. PS - I still wonder how the two E don't look alike ... but on the other coin you can see they have the same general shape, but one is deeper ...   Here is the wrong legend on one of my cobs, REE instead of REX :   Edited by MathieuMa
01/25/2014 05:03 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Nobody got my cryptic $3 bill message (notice that the note is good for Spanish milled dollars... nice touch, I thought).
"There are many variants on spanish coins..."
Indeed. Both pieces are perfectly genuine. Forest through trees, sometimes.
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Would "retrograde" be an option here instead of backwards?
Or would retrograde only be applied to several letters or digits, as in, say, the year reading 8171 instead of 1718?
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
By the way, the latest Calicó number is 1144 (Numismática Española, 2008 - the numbering is now starting at 1 with every king).
This variant is described as "3 flores de lis y el 4 boca abajo", which means "upside down" (which is technically wrong, of course)
Also, the example depicted shows the deformed E in DEI.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Dos Mundos - BTW - I did do XRF testing on the upside down Mexico City pieces Mo - they all perfect silver ~90% alloys with good Au & Pt - these are ALL true errors and do not have a hint of "contemporary" in their nature.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
(Numismática Española, 2008 - the numbering is now starting at 1 with every king).
I HATE the system they use, where everything gets renumbered completely every time - Cayon is sort of similar. Just a scheme to force you buy the new one...
Retrograde - sort of a synonym for backwards, but I can work with that - since it's only a single character here, you could say it's either mirrored/inverted... OR backward/retrograde, I think. Ahh, pointless, semantics!
The weight, by the way, was a bit higher than usual (esp. the 12g piece)... but just like with the corresponding pistareen 2R of these dates so often found here in the colonies/states, the weights varied greatly and the designs did as well.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Why don't we just say the 4 is "rotated"?
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Replies: 25 / Views: 3,789 |
Posted 01/24/2014 8:43 pm
