Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsSpecializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

First Attempt At Axial Lighting

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 40 / Views: 10,251Next Topic
Page: of 3
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2014  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The ideal glass for axial lighting - "beamsplitter" glass - is the stuff they use with teleprompters. Its' best capability is to reflect on the order of 75% of applied light. And it's not cheap - a 12"x12" pane of 75% reflective will run you on the order of $400. A "regular" pane of glass will not approximate that transmission level, both a good and a bad thing. Good, because it limits the possibility of washing out details via excessive illumination; bad because it seriously compromises the "sweet spot" of your settings. You'll need to jack ISO up and exposure down. I'm in the neighborhood of ISO800 and 1/8sec for axial work (at f/8, of course ) although that will probably improve a bit with a more-lustrous coin like your 1884. You might be able to reach 1/25 or even better (consider ISO1600) with it.

The key to axial lighting is the only light reaching the coin is that reflected. One must be very picky about eliminating any chance of light from other sources, direct or reflected from the environment. In addition, you'll find broader sources of light such as regular incandescent bulbs - as opposed to more point-oriented sources like Jansjos - to be the better tool. A point source will supply a point illumination, perhaps not fully covering the coin and leading to "hot spots" of color which fail to cover the whole coin. Slabs will be particularly difficult, and you may end up needing to adjust the glass positioning by a degree or two along both axes - tilt and angle - to effectively illuminate the subject.

Pro tip: Once you've got the technique down, point it at a nice Cameo Proof, and giggle at the results.

I didn't do this brain dump for your first image because - frankly - it's a great image and IMO quite faithful to what the coin looks like in the real world. It's only a little bit of increased contrast from being world-class.
Pillar of the Community
westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  05:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The key to axial lighting is the only light reaching the coin is that reflected. One must be very picky about eliminating any chance of light from other sources, direct or reflected from the environment. In addition, you'll find broader sources of light such as regular incandescent bulbs - as opposed to more point-oriented sources like Jansjos - to be the better tool.



I took the ANA Summer Seminar course on coin photography many years ago (film days only) we shot in a dark room after setting up the axial lighting. Got very nice results on ultra high relief medals and coins, very nice on ancients too! (Something I don't have, so I haven't really tried photographing them.

I really like the results you got from your first experiments, can't wait to see more CherreePicker!
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  05:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also wonder if instead of using beamsplitter glass (the best, I know) if a glass platen from an old broken scanner would be close? It should be optically pretty good, and broken scanners can be had for cheap or next to nothing! Haven't tried it, but just may look for one to tear the glass platen out of. Could be better than hardware store glass I'm betting.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Valued Member
CherreePicker's Avatar
440 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  06:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CherreePicker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well beamsplitter glass @ $400 is too rich for me for a piece of glass. I can see spending that if someone was doing this professionally & making $$ with their work. I'll try playing with exposure levels. Working in a darkened room and blocking any reflected light off unwanted sources seems to be a key issue. I have some DMPL's, cameo proofs & non-cameo proofs that I'm going to experiment with at different exposures & light sources. But first I have to build a better mousetrap to contain & angle my glass. Pirating glass from an old copy/scanner machine sounds feasible as long as it is not too scratched from use.
I realize now how many mistakes were made trying to get an axial lighting pic of this coin; the weird part is this incorrect light attempt rendered the best depiction of this coin regarding its' true color that I have been able to attain. I may try it on some other toned coins to see what the results are.
Dave if I remember correctly I think I did reduce the contrast a bit post photo; how much more contrast reduction do you think this pic needs?
Pillar of the Community
austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can get beam splitter glass much cheaper than $400.00 Here one example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Telepromp...em3ca72bae36

For accurately Mounting the glass( rather than cardboard) I discovered a School geometry set that included a large triangular Protractor, as opposed to semi circular. I purchased 2 sets at the great expense of about US$12.00 in total I then used silicon sealer to attach the Beam Splitter to the two large protractors ....the result is the glass sits at exactly 45 degrees. Finding the protractors was a fluke I had been looking at sheet perspex (plexiglass) which I was going to cut but that was closer to US$30.00 a sheet and with the protractors there was no cutting involved.
Edited by austrokiwi
03/19/2014 09:29 am
Pillar of the Community
52Raymo's Avatar
United States
8517 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  10:22 am  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I purchased 2 sets at the great expense of about US$12.00 in total I then used silicon sealer to attach the Beam Splitter to the two large protractors ....the result is the glass sits at exactly 45 degrees.

I love this kinda stuff, brilliant !
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You can get beam splitter glass much cheaper than $400.00


That listing is for 30% reflective, approximately equivalent to uncoated glass. Take that 70/30 relationship in the other direction as I mentioned in my post, and you're looking at some expense. The *only* advantage to beamsplitter is superior reflection due to the coating, similar to "one-way" mirror coatings which are beamsplitter with the highly-reflective side toward the interviewee and the transmittal side (with the observers) in a darkened room.


Quote:
I realize now how many mistakes were made trying to get an axial lighting pic of this coin; the weird part is this incorrect light attempt rendered the best depiction of this coin regarding its' true color that I have been able to attain. I may try it on some other toned coins to see what the results are.
Dave if I remember correctly I think I did reduce the contrast a bit post photo; how much more contrast reduction do you think this pic needs?


That's a testament to the fundamental effectiveness of axial lighting at illustrating color on a coin. The only thing the excess light did was diffuse the color somewhat. I was thinking more contrast, not less, as a result.

As I mentioned in another thread, it's important to factor in the lighting conditions under which you look at a coin in-hand when evaluating images. We're always extremely careful about lighting setup for imaging, but far less-so when using the loupe and then we wonder why the photo doesn't match the in-hand look. If you look at your 1884 under sharp, bright direct lighting, you might find it rather brighter-hued than you think.

First-Attempt-At-Axial-Lighting


Pillar of the Community
austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That listing is for 30% reflective, approximately equivalent to uncoated glass. Take that 70/30 relationship in the other direction as I mentioned in my post, and you're looking at some expense.



Ok I thought hard about that it doesn't sit right Why would you even want to look at a 70-30 beam splitter?. I use a very old glass beam splitter it's a 50-50( I had to check because I used to think it was 30-70). It was an Edmunds NOS. Its optically correct( the most important factor IMHO) and is coated with Titanium dioxide( Cost me US$70.00). It works well Yes only 50% of the light gets to the subject and 50% of the light from the subject gets to the camera. If I have done my maths right of the original light beam only 25 % (50% of 50%)gets to the sensor. If you use a 30-70 or 70-30 you still end up with only 21% of the original beam getting to the sensor. So as I understand it the 30 -70 is just as effective as the 70-30. ( have I got this maths right?)

I would recommend the 50-50 splitter You can buy direct from Edmunds ( Go to the 5th page of the link for a decent size.)

http://www.edmundoptics.com/optics/...litters/2035
Edited by austrokiwi
03/19/2014 2:59 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You've got all of that right, austrokiwi. A 50-50 is head and shoulders above regular glass, which doesn't do better than 20% or so. The only reason for beamsplitter stuff - and each photographer has to rationalize the cost based on their own needs - is the increased zone of usable settings as one increases in total reflected content.
Pillar of the Community
austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Superdave for checking my understanding. For others you may wonder why the concern with how much light is transferred. For me the concerns are two fold ISO and exposure:
The less light that gets to the camera (unless you using Solar flare levels of lighting) the longer the exposure or higher the ISO. With High ISO you can have the issue of noise. With longer exposures vibration becomes an issue. No matter how solid your copy stand is the longer the exposure the more chance of vibration ruining your good work.
You may think I am nit picking however if you get a good Axial lighting set up you will start to get good photos and of course you will want to do better. As you challenge your self more you may start to be frustrated with soft shots caused by High ISO and or long exposure.
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2014  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We nitpick here, austrokiwi. That's what we do.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
4038 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2014  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The highest overall transmission you can get with a single glass sheet is 25%, using 50% glass. Less reflection means less light to the coin, so extraneous sources are more intrusive. The extraneous sources also transmit more from coin to sensor, a double-whammy!. Less reflection also means more light passing to the back of the setup that has to be dealt with.

All that said, regular glass can work fine as long as it's fairly high quality.

A huge caveat here...all the times I've set up axial lighting, I've tried for the "most axial" I could achieve, and have every time been disappointed. "Pure" axial lighting creates very high contrast and extreme shadowing on any surfaces that are not reflecting back to the sensor. Here is a Cent photo I took with an axial setup, compared with a 2-source 75-deg setup:

First-Attempt-At-Axial-Lighting
First-Attempt-At-Axial-Lighting

Notice the 75-deg setup doesn't present much luster, but the axial setup produces virtually none. This is because the "luster" we're used to seeing is a contrast between direct reflection and absorption off the local metal surfaces, and needs to be localized to normal to us. Luster is actually present in these images, but is spread fairly evenly over the 75-deg setup, and perfectly evenly over the axial setup, so it doesn't look like luster.

Also notice that the axial setup "hides" a lot of surface finish detail. It takes side-lighting to create the shadows that delineate surface details, and axial by definition does not provide this.

Most folks who are successful with axial lighting are actually not doing axial lighting! They have axial setups, but use large or multiple lights to create a variable lighting system that includes axial content to bring out the color presentation only axial can produce as a part of the overall image.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at:
http://macrocoins.com
Valued Member
CherreePicker's Avatar
440 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2014  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CherreePicker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Most folks who are successful with axial lighting are actually not doing axial lighting! They have axial setups, but use large or multiple lights to create a variable lighting system that includes axial content to bring out the color presentation only axial can produce as a part of the overall image."

Interesting because being relatively new at this I was contemplating this very idea. After realizing my axial attempt was not really a true axial procedure I at first tried to contemplate ways to render a truer axial image(which I will most likely still do). Then after re-visualizing this particular coin per Dave's suggestion I still feel the photo I accidentally got during this attempt is to date the best rendition I have been able to get. It truly resembles the coins actual color. I have been rethinking my procedure and was wondering how a combination of axial & additional lighting (which would have to be tweaked) would work on some of my other coins with DMPL, PL & cameo proff surfaces. Lots of experimenting seems to be in the future.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
4038 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2014  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You, sir, are hooked! Welcome to the club...Ray
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at:
http://macrocoins.com
Valued Member
CherreePicker's Avatar
440 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2014  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CherreePicker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ray you and Dave did this to me :)
Can't say that I'm not having fun though.
Bob
  Previous TopicReplies: 40 / Views: 10,251Next Topic
Page: of 3

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.47 seconds to rattle this change. Forums