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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Where these coins were minted is still uncertain. One suggestion is they were minted at the Tower of London. When these coins were minted has been the subject of debate for the past two hundred and sixty years. Proposed dates for these coins have been 1641- - "1642; 1667- - "1669; 1672- - "1674. The current thinking is they were minted between 1646 to 1660 before the official reign of Charles II of England, while he was in exile, due to new documents recently discovered by John N. Lupia and published in the C4 Newsletter 2008. Who coined them and the circumstances surrounding them is still uncertain. Two candidates: Pierre Blondeau or Nicholas Briot have been proposed as the designer of these coins, but both the former suggestion seem unlikely. John N. Lupia has published in the C4 Newsletter 2009 new documentary evidence that shows both the small and large copper coins are halfpence. The small issue was minted 1646- - "1660, and the larger from 1688- - "1690.
One smaller copper specimen bears a counterstamp along the base of the obverse that reads MDLIII, which may suggest a date of 1553, but that is far too early to be taken seriously.
It is purported that about 450 different die varieties exist of this series on the small coin. Approximately 1,100 specimens are known in census. The number of coins minted has been guessed to be somewhere in the vicinity of approximately 1,500,000 to more than 7,000,000 pieces.
Any ideas? Blondeau? For sure ... why and why not?
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
Quote:
Any ideas? None that you and many others have not entertained. So many different dates suggested for minting. If it were Blondeau, on orders from James Butler, Earl, Marquess and Duke of Ormonde, the dates you suggest (1646-1660) seem a bit early. More likely they would have been minted after the Restoration, in the early years of Charles II reign. Very interesting topic. Thanks for making my head hurt..... |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
I agree ... really only two possibilities ... the Tower Mint or Vatican ... one recent good liner from an up and coming collector called Hoover ... AGAINST ... the Vatican hypothesis is ... "YOU DON'T FUND A REBELLION WITH COPPER ... YOU DO IT WITH SILVER AND GOLD.
Interesting book by Henry William Henfrey "The Medallic History of Oliver Cromwell - Illustrated by his Coins, Medals and Seals. Take note of the Ramage Farthings and copper insert patterns! Compare to brass splashers and the like - similar technology capabilities <VVBG>.
Back in 2005 I did some preliminary SEM/EDS analysis of the 1672-1675 period farthings and preliminary analysis indicated virtual mirror analysis and grain zize microgrpahs to the St. Patrick Farthing. Currently expounding this analyses to confirm Cromwell/Blondeau to these pieces - only possibility.
One question which historians/numismatists push around is why 200+ varieities to the farthings all at Rarity 6-6+? Good question - but that question is only HALF-ASKED? Why are the grades never really above VF.
I owned the finest know Farthing next to the Gareett:80 example. The finest of three Norweb AU's ... care to speculate on why these grades and 200+ R6 varieties as a known population today in our collecting circles.
Take a tylenol and try to answer ... <VVBG>.
Edited by colonialjohn
03/25/2014 12:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
Quote:
One question which historians/numismatists push around is why 200+ varieities to the farthings all at Rarity 6-6+? I'm at a loss here? Quote:
Why are the grades never really above VF Typically weakly struck. Also, circulated for years....first as payment to Loyalist Catholic troops. Later in Ireland and the Isle of Mann and even later ( courtesy of Newby) in Colonial America? Quote:
Currently expounding this analyses to confirm Cromwell/Blondeau to these pieces - only possibility. Very interested in these results. Edited by amida17
03/25/2014 12:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Impressive. You have scored 100%. The one question that stumped you was the fact what we have in our collections today or see around is simply a subset of the total minted obviously that may? have sat around for 10-20 years after striking before Newby brought them to West Jersey (U.S.) ... most left in England/Ireland were probably destroyed - only the Newby pieces remain for our collections? If you trace the top 12 farthings in the condition census like the Norweb AU's and Garett:80, Picker ... most have pedigrees basically to Englsnd cabinets or on THAT SIDE of the pond ... obviously anything in West Jersey was heavily circulated (Newby Hoard). Just a thought ...
Analysis ... in progress ...
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1318 Posts |
Don't have much to add - other than they were demonetised on the Isle of Man by act of Tynwald (on 24th June 1679) from 1st Jan 1680.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Yes - Andy - and shortly thereafter we see Newby with several barrels of St. Patricks heading to West Jersey (USA) <BG>.
AMIDA17 - if you google microstructure,metallography,coin you will see ancient papers verifying manufacturing proceses. Its more difficult when you proceed forward in time with more complicated ore mixing but initial results show similar microstructures between Cromwell Era farthings and St. Pat Farthings. Additionally - never have done a XRF or SEM/EDS on that brass splasher on the larger sized halfpence. Current thinking is that now they are both considered halfpence (Lupia Study). No big revelation here as the WEIGHTS of these pieces never SYNCED as halfpence to farthing ... of the small to larger size pieces.
Every manufacturing process like a human being has its OWN distinctive fingerprint ... in progress ...
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
The West NJ legislature was first reluctant but also in need of a circulating form of money. They were approved fairly quickly for circulation. Of the Halfpenny and Farthing, we know that the Halfpenny was definitely used as there is evidence of a few found on known Colonial sites. Where these were struck is still up for debate but I'm inclined to believe it was either the Tower Mint or somewhere in Ireland. When they were struck varies. Since they are part of the US Colonial types, I'll move to US Classic. Here is mine:  swcoin.ecrater.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
From the West Jersey Legislature, 1682: Quote:
Mark Newbie's half pence shall, from and after the said eighteenth instant (May 18, 1682), pass for half pence current pay of this province; provided he, the said Mark, give sufficient security to the Speaker of the House for the use of the General Assembly from time to time being; that he, the said Mark, his executors and administrators, shall and will change the said half pence for pay equivalent upon demand; and provided also, that no person or persons be hereby obliged to take more than five shillings in one payment. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3229 Posts |
Great thread! Thanks!  Much new info for me  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Philly - Remember Lupia's conclusions both indicate the small and large St.Pats are BOTH halfpence struck at different time periods. You could debate this but to me its unimportant since my goal is to publish a small benchmark paper showing the Microstructure (i.e., microscopic alloys configuration) between Charles II COPPER coinage and these St. Pats. Remember also in Phil Mossman's first Encyclopedia where the weights NEVER match up with one another as a halfpence and farthing as with all other coinages ... ALMOST? as if they were commemoratives for the Irish people. If possible I will also take a look at the molten brushed on brass? splasher which only appears on the copper issues. Additionally the weight range of the silver pieces is LARGE - another mystery but as Jeff Rock of California has pointed out presentation pieces can vary in weight as with these silver St. Pats. Presentation pieces for the silver alloys? Very logical ...
It does keep coming up Cromwell/Charles II and those poor Irish people under English rule ...
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
John, "halfpence/farthing" are likely just later, numismatic terms for these issues anyway. As v noted, Newby may have only brought the one size with him to America anyway, to distribute from the very first "bank of issue" in America, his log cabin in Camden County. And what was really being said there in the West Jersey Assembly (which wouldn't even be joined to the East Jersey Legislature for a united New Jersey government until the reign of Queen Anne!) was, "the province needs small change, so we're all going to call Newby's Irish things "halfpence," and give them halfpence value in trade."
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Philly - yes - he may have just brought the SMALLER halfpence - as they are MUCH MORE COMMON than the larger halfpence which could be a strong argument for a SLIGHLY? different striking period? 100% agree in your last post.
Probably around September 2014 I will present my findings or further analysis of these pieces at some gathering in NJ by the OCEAN (Really).
My only concern is to present a benchmark paper - did they come from Blondeau's minting operation via Material Analysis ...
The rest of this is re-hashed loose ends ... <VVBG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
An interesting thought from a collector:
I still keep thinking about Silver, large or small St. Pats (not wanting to dredge up denominations)...................what kind of entity in Ireland (or with influence over Ireland) would have widely distributed Manufacturing (because of the large number of fairly scarce varieties), but one unified marketing message (or iconography, imagery etc.)........and it keeps coming back to some king of Church and parish thing for whatever purpose.
And the Church certainly likes to present things.
JMO
JPL Response: Just a typical English/Irish coinage relationship in the mid-late 1600's? ... <VVBG>.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
John
Are you going to analyze any of the Dublin produced, post Restoration, tradesman tokens for comparison?
Vinnie
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
For the Material Analysis each coin is cut in half, polished on the cut edges, acid etched to bring up the diagnostic grain size (structure) of the specimen so at this point I am lucky enough to have someone from Ireland actually SELLING ME a $100 AG-3 St. Pat. farthing and another $100 for the late 17thC Charless II farthings. Yes - all coins are DESTROYED. Any you wish to donate? No joke ... but you see my point. This is why its a benchmark study. The latest insstruments and technology STILL require a central coin core analysis ... the true coin diagnostics of the time (late 17thC). This is standard procedure for this kind of microstructure coin study.
Now that you mention it I could just announce here that this study is also about determing the true alloy nature of the so-called brass splasher and how it was applied? This part of the analysis with these coins is NON-DESTRUCTIVE and of course this splasher JUST exist on the larger sized pieces. Anybody wishing to send me some pieces contact me privately. Will of course send back REGISTERED out of my own pocket.
So the brass splasher analysis is non-destructive (i.e., just the outside of the coin will be viewed). The other part the microstructure JUST on the ONE St. Pat farthing will be DESTRUCTIVE and the Charless II farthings of 1672-1675. My expense. Should we use more examples - sure - but too expensive. I also have my notes from 2005 when I initially did this study. Cut open St. Pat's ! <VVBG>. They were somewhat cheaper back then or when I originally bought them in 1998 ... <BG>.
Still want to donate some pieces for destruction ... its for Science. If not ... any St. Pats large sized pieces for brass splasher non-destructive alloy determinations?
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/26/2014 10:59 am
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Replies: 18 / Views: 5,141 |
Posted 03/25/2014 11:56 am
