1964 'Accented Hair's Little Brother' - T2o-T1R

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eSinger Pillar of the Community United States 523 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 7:33 pm I have been doing some research on this one and thought I would pass it along here. This has been a neat journey..It is a long read but I have enjoyed this journey. If your a Kennedy half fan, take a look and chime in! I am going to call it the T2O-T1R (Accented Hair's Little Brother) **************Part 1 *************************** So I have seen a few threads about Accented Hair Kennedy's but I ran across a Variety Type. It is not an Accented Hair yet has the same Reverse as the AH one. What I think to be the case is the AH Obverse Die was taken out of service yet the Reverse Die was continued for a while longer. I think that ANACS is the only TPG that will slab as such. I just bought two of them. The pictures suck but when I get them in hand I will post better ones. I saw these and thought why not? I had not heard of them and they look kinda neat and did not break the bank.. So the journey begins..... The Accented Hair Markers can be found here: http://www.ipotad.com/pages/ah2.html Accented Hair Normal Type So I started looking and NGC will not label them but they have them...see here.. 1964 Kennedy "Transitional Die" NGC PF67 STAR CAMEO PR http://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-1964-K...161289927581 I can not see in these pictures whether it has a straight G but I bet it does. NGC did not label it as special or not. Yet it is.... Here is another one, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-KENNED...29 And some others that are for sale.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTRA-RARE-...312096?rt=nc http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-1964-Ke...41 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scarce-1964...48 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scarce-1964...03 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-90-Sil...08 http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Day-1964-...36 Prices are all over the place but what I find interesting is the comments on some of them.. Quote: Super low population coin! Add in the fact that it's a Trans die Rev. and that makes this coin almost impossible to find! PCGS BOOK VALUE IS $2,200 Quote: HAS THE VERY FIRST 1964 PROOF DIE STRIKE ON THE REVERSE. THIS IS THE SAME REVERSE DIE USED TO STRIKE THE ACCENTED HAIR PROOFS. THIS COIN IS MATCHED WITH THE SECOND OBVERSE DIE USED TO STRIKE THE 1964 KENNEDY PROOFS. IT IS BELIEVED THAT THIS COMBINATION OF THE SECOND OBVERSE AND THE FIRST REVERSE DIES IS EVEN MORE SCARCE THAN THE ACCENTED HAIR KENNEDY ITSELF. THE COMBINATION OF DIES WOULD BE OBV-02, REV-01. THE ACCENTED HAIR REVERSE IS KNOWN BY THE BROKEN STAR LINE AND THE STRAIGHT G Quote: The obverse is the normal Kennedy strike, and the reverse minted using the Accented Hair variety die. The transitional variety is becoming a coin much more in demand as time goes by, just like the Accented Hair. These are as rare as the Accented Hair variety and are therefore a "must-have", get them now coin. This is a variety for any serious collector of Kennedy half dollars. Quote: The obverse is the normal Kennedy strike, and the reverse minted using the Accented Hair variety die. You can identify the Transitional by looking for what is known as "broken rays". The rays that intersect the stars below "UNUM" will appear to be broken. Also inspect the designers initials FG. The G will not have a vertical lip. It will be straight up and down.The transitional variety is becoming a coin much more in demand as time goes by, just like the Accented Hair. These are as rare as the Accented Hair variety and are therefore a must-have coin. Quote: 1964 half proof type 1 reverse transitional variety, a hybrid of obverse of standard design with reverse of accent hair type 1 reverse. cool combination variety. the reverse standout is the broken rays by stars and the straight G tip in FG designers initials. this is similar in prevalence to the accent hair. history on this - after widowed jackie o was succesful in getting the mint director to thwart minting of the type 1 accent hair since she did not agree with the design, after only minting 1% of the total 1964 proofs of that year, the large 99% remainder were succesively minted as the standard die design - BUT some of the standard design minted shortly after the change in the beginning, received the dies from the reverse of the accent hair that were accidentally left over from the first die and used. - this created a few batches of this hybrid type variety and the mintage is unknown. speculation for the accent hair is 1% of total minted that year, but I have yet to see any solid numbers on this variety. cool history nonetheless. named transitional because it is the crossroad type between type 1 accent hair and standard design timeline. there have been similar examples in the us mint history with crossings from different designs such as the Morgan dollars, etc. with reverse of different year, or more modern the type C quarter 1964 -d with the reverse of '65. this transitional variety is cool because it is a mix between two varieties within same exact year. rare occurence. also for reference - anacs is the leading designator for this variety and they have only 30 recorded examples in all grades highest being 68. It would seem that this makes sense. It is not an Accented Hair, but the Reverse Dies last longer than the Obverse. Reading in a book "Cameo Proofs 1950-1964" by Val J. Webb, they last about 20% longer. So interpolating what that means is that this variety should be more rare than the Accented Hair one. That is of course if I am not missing anything.. Could this be a sleeper? I have heard many so no because it has not caught on. The Accented Hair has because of the history but what of it's little brother? ************ Part II *************** Well I just added some information. This is getting better the deeper I go. - Went through all my 64 Proofs (20).......second to last one, I found it. It is not a Cameo but it is in great shape. So I have found one of these in the wild also. I have only found one Accented Hair in the wild so that is a tie. Found some more information on these, Quote: James Wiles, Ph.D. has writtenThe Kennedy half dollar Book.My second edition 1998 describes this as ODV-002, RDV-001. In other words, the normal (non-Accented Hair) proof obverse, which shows no weakness at the bottom left corner of the I in LIBERTY (that weakness, for many collectors, is the easier Pickup Point than the hair for the Accented Hair proofs). The "transitional reverse" shows a straight G (the normal die on the regular proofs has a flared G) on the designer's initials FG and straight (not broken) rays where they pass through the stars. Since PCGS doesn't certify them it would tend to dampen the value, I would guess. I have never sold one or searched for them. The Wiles guide prices it at $30 (corrected, $40 in PR66) in PR65 but that is the 1998 price. Deleted link My Cherrypicker's 4th Edition has it somewhat, its says an AH in PR65 is worth $20 and the normal variety in PR65 is $9. So 1/2 the AH. Well I am not to sure about this. I am not sure that the guide is clear on this variety. So lets dig a bit ..... From ANACS Website (2012) Date..... 1964 PF TYPE 1 STRAIGHT G (29) 1964 PF ACCENTED HAIR FS-401 (242) That is roughly 12% of the Accented Hair Type. Now we should interpolate some things. First, this is almost unknown compared to the AH type. As I have found there is no real demand for these that I can find. I think this is strange as they have to be uncommon and any Kennedy collector should want one. Again gathering some information on the AH at; http://www.ipotad.com/pages/ah2.html Quote: This is because reverse die #1 was also paired with obverse die #2. These are known as the "transitional variety" and, while rather uncommon, they do exist. and here; http://kennedyhalfdollars.net/1964-...half-dollar/ Quote:** It has been estimated that 1% to 3% of the total mintage of proof 1964 Kennedy half dollars are of the accented hair variety. This would suggest a total population ranging from about 40,000 to 120,000 coins. So if I take my random sample of 20 and I found one, then that is 5%. I can not remember where but I think that I read that the obverse die is used for 2/3 of the time that the reverse is. I am not positive about this, so I will just use a conservative figure of 1/3 more for the Reverse Die. (later found a quote of 20% listed above)but I will keep my original numbers as calculated) If we take the guesstimated mintage of Accented Hair Kennedy's at 100,000. That leaves about 50,000 of these theoretically. Lets assume 25% were melted around 1980 and maybe some in 2011. That takes us to around 37,500. This is a round number, you see how I came up with it so take it with a grain of salt. However, if one were to find a Cameo/Deep Cameo of these, then the ballgame changes. I remember seeing somewhere that NGC and PCGS each have around 1000 of the 64 Cameo's. I can not remember the Accented Hair Cameos but I would bet that these are even more rare. Think about it, the dies were used towards the end stage, before Mrs. Kennedy made them change it. If Cameo's only make up say 15% of the total numbers, then these Type 2 Obverse - Type 1 Reverse coins should only have a population of at most 12% of the regular ones. Remember that ANACS probably has a higher percentage of these graded as they are the only ones to slab them. I forgot I can get into NGC so lets take a look shall we? 1964 AH 7809 1964 AH CAM 1031 1964 AH DCAM 63 Lets look at PCGS 1964 AH 4075 1964 AH CAM 808 1964 AH DCAM 94 Well that is around ~15,000 Accented Hair Kennedy's that have been slabbed. I am not going to change that number even though I know some are crossovers and resubmitted coins. Just seeing these numbers makes me think that of these Type 2 Obverse - Type 1 Reverse numbers should come out conservatively around here: 1964 T2O-T1R ~ 6500 1964 T2O-T1R CAM ~ 1000 1964 T2O-T1R DCAM ~ 85 Well there you have it, my afternoon gone but I did enjoy it. Maybe we have a Sleeper Kennedy on our hands. ********* Part III ************************** Well I just got a surprise, a pleasant one actually. I forgot to look at my PCGS Slabs. Guess what? PR68 even....cool. Just looked in the Kennedy half dollar Book. I took a picture of the page. This is it, I am sure. Why do the top Tier TPG's ignore it? As per the description, as small percentage have the Type 1 Reverse and notice the price is $10 more for this one than the Accented Hair! (1998 prices). I am having fun, I know many already of knew of this, but I did not. When I got back into collecting I chose to collect Kennedy's and here I am. I just found out about it and educated myself on it. No different that when I learned of the 98S Matte, I learned about it and then went an got one raw. When at a show, I saw one PCGS MS69(older slab) for $100, I grabbed it. Is this 1/2 Accented Hair (T2O-T1R)a big deal? Well from what I have learned, I think it could be someday. The information out there leads one to believe that the mintage is less than the AH itself, and if that is the case, then variety collectors will want one and maybe the TPG's will take notice. I mean they have for other denominations right? The Penny folks sure would agree with that. I mean it did get a page in the Kennedy book so somebody else thought it worth noting. Is it rare? Well the fact that I found 2 of them in my stuff means probably not, probably just uncommon but who really knows Maybe if people start looking, a better picture will emerge. Let's take a look at that Kennedy book again, the AH variety has a URS of 19 which Mr. Wiles puts the mintage at 125,001 - 250,000. A PR67 is listed as $40 (1998). Well this variety in discussion has a URS of 17, in which Mr. Wiles puts the mintage around 32,001 - 64,000 (I was on the right track). A PR67 is listed as $50. If he deems it more valuable than the AH, then maybe he is on to something. If they kill off the Kennedy half (likely at some point), this might become a bigger deal. So all this being said, and researched as best I can, I think we have a 'uncommon' variety on our hands and if you collect Kennedy's you need to check for them and note them as such. I do believe that there are less of these than the older brother Accented Hair. I could be wrong but the existing evidence leads me to believe otherwise. Something to ponder though, while this history of Mrs. Kennedy not liking the hair is well known and that alone is a good reason for people remembering what was special about it, but as in history at times the little brother is left out. This variety is part of that history. What say you? Edited by eSinger 05/18/2014 8:08 pm Report this Post to the Staff

wert Rest in Peace 1988 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 10:20 pm When I got to the end, I forgot what I read and had to start all over...haha Report this Post to the Staff
rupester Pillar of the Community United States 1300 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 10:53 pm A real twist? A MS coin with AH reverse die? Has that been pondered? I said that because, I like you are a Kennedy Maniac, so first off dug out my Kennedy book sure enough there is the coin you described and it has to be the rarest!! Well...to throw a SERIOUS WRENCH into this discussion.. On FS-1964D-50-503 the arrow and star has a broken ray starand the FG as described by the RDV-002 (aka the one you posted about, anyways if ya have one laying around check it out..i will set up the photo-mat but just wanted to get this out there Edited by rupester 05/18/2014 11:06 pm Report this Post to the Staff
eSinger Pillar of the Community United States 523 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 10:55 pm There is one, I can not remember what it was called but it is in the Kennedy book. Same reverse but a Denver Mint. Report this Post to the Staff
eSinger Pillar of the Community United States 523 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 11:05 pm Here is the information on it.... Edit: Cool I remember reading about one in my research but I was stuck on the proof version. The picture above leads me to believe they are not rare, so that must mean that the Denver mint used the Master Reverse Die #1 that is. I will have to look through mine sometime and see if I have one. Cheers Edited by eSinger 05/18/2014 11:14 pm Report this Post to the Staff
rupester Pillar of the Community United States 1300 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 11:25 pm Roger that!! Well I boldly say the RPM#3 is that reverse.. I have 3 of three on them..and all 3 are that reverse also I do have a AH kennedy and a proof kennedy with the AH reverse.. Lol I need the previous CPG books haha Edit: the fs-1964d-50-503 bears the same reverse as the accented hair kennedy.. Thats what I am trying to say.. I need a typing class.. Edited by rupester 05/18/2014 11:39 pm Report this Post to the Staff
eSinger Pillar of the Community United States 523 Posts	Posted 05/18/2014 11:59 pm Quote: I do have a AH kennedy and a proof kennedy with the AH reverse You have Accented Hair's little brother then! Report this Post to the Staff
rupester Pillar of the Community United States 1300 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 12:15 am Yep. Originally bought it without knowing the reverse.it appeared as a minor double coin. Its a high grade proof, so it was chosen as our houses "permanant collection coin" and I had read about this type 1 reverse. So thought it would be cool to slip it into the collection. I do the same thing in all my books slide the occasional "variety" in. Fun conversation pieces. Report this Post to the Staff
Indian1 Pillar of the Community United States 3640 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 12:39 am I have picked many accented hairs over the years. I've seen that reverse on non acct. hair proofs as well as on many business strikes. I honestly think it is more common than not. They can get an approx. estimation on the ACH's minted. Never heard of or found an ACH obv. without the normal rev. for the ACH. Now that would be a rarity. Report this Post to the Staff
Indian1 Pillar of the Community United States 3640 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 12:51 am Wanted to add. "with reverse of accent hair type 1 reverse" This sentence is really confusing to many. The type 1 rev. is just that, the type 1 reverse. Just happened that was the reverse they used on the ACH Variety proof. The type 1 rev. was used on many coins. Not rare. But like I mentioned, find an ACH obv. on a non type 1 rev. Now that would be a find. Report this Post to the Staff
rupester Pillar of the Community United States 1300 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 01:24 am I think its pretty cool on the RPM coin, hopefully a couple other owners of this variety coin will look at them and see what they find. Report this Post to the Staff
rupester Pillar of the Community United States 1300 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 01:30 am Checked variety-vista yes the 503 is RDV-001 well...its at times like this when I realize..research is the key and the learning process is huge.. More or less..I guess thats why I enjoy this forum so much.. Out of the OP I absolutely learned some new stuff..and this is why I browse all of the posts and sponge all I can.. Thanks CCF and atstringer thanks for all the work you put into this thread I can tell you..I have learned alot! Thanks Report this Post to the Staff
eSinger Pillar of the Community United States 523 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 07:31 am Quote: find an ACH obv. on a non type 1 rev. Now that would be a find. That would be worth some cash and in this journey many have mentioned that exact thing. I have already checked mine, if one exists, it is worth some $$. That is what makes me think this Ty2OB/Ty1Rev is not that common in the proofs. You see I am into Cameos and reading about them. The books have good information on a year by year basis and they can tell by the different strikes/dies/polishings/etc. The Accented Hair's little brother might be common, that I can not prove yet. However, after Mrs. Kennedy had them change the obverse, they soon had to change that set of dies. Be it 20% longer or 33% longer, of that we can not be sure. What we do know is that when they changed it, the cleaned it up quite a bit. The AH was known for the 'poor' shield on the reverse. This is not so with the next set of dies, deep quality strikes from that point. The question is how many more strikes were done with that die? Did they re-polish it and use it again and again? This we do not know but if they did that there should be a lot of DCAM Reverses with non cameo obverses out their of this combination. The author of the Kennedy Book knew something and the fact that he lists it as more rare than the AH says a lot to me about it. It just is not popular as it doesn't have a catchy name. Well, it does now....."Accented Hair's Little Brother" Report this Post to the Staff
Indian1 Pillar of the Community United States 3640 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 09:29 am Oh well, guess I sold a few proof sets over the years with that coin in there. Next one that I find i'll put it away just in case. They minted just a tad under 4 million 64 proofs. Estimates on the ACH run from 1% to 3% of all proofs minted. Now, get out there and find another 64 P/D SMS :) Report this Post to the Staff
eSinger Pillar of the Community United States 523 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 7:57 pm Quote: Now, get out there and find another 64 P/D SMS :) I wish I could get one of those but since there are like 5, it will not happen :) I will just be happy finding AH's little brother.. Report this Post to the Staff
harveypb Valued Member United States 341 Posts	Posted 05/19/2014 9:02 pm I just checked my 1964 PCGS PF67DCAM Kennedy and it isn't an AH type BUT it has the straight G!! Report this Post to the Staff
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