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 Replies: 23 / Views: 3,374 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
This auction stretches credibility in my opinion; 281490581450Please read the entire posting before you reply. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
They describe it as 'Maio Silver', isn't that a low grade silver alloy? (which would indicate a counterfeit coin)?
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Rest in Peace
United States
7075 Posts |
 non-metallic AND Maio silver? Maio Silver = made in China |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
' caveat emptor' (buyer beware). Maio silver is VERY low variable % content silver, but almost always never more than 5%. Maio IS a non ferrous alloy. Silver content unknown? You bet! Sold (bought singly): the seller informs the buyer that an invoice is only available with multiple wins. Returns acceptable only in original unopened holder. No photograph of the holder. Perhaps heat sealed, only possible to remove the coin for examination by damaging the holder? Open the holder by damaging it, and under the terms of the sale, you then cannot return it. 'Red flags' at every turn! This coin is a fake, without the seller saying so; he had to NOT admit it is a fake, to enable it to be sold on ebay. Ethics violation? Definitely! Most probably legal violation as well. A strong case can be made for removing the item AND the seller from ebay. Money cheerfully refunded if not completely satisfied? Hardly!  |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5394 Posts |
Yet another counterfeit coin and deceptive description. ebay must stop this stuff! |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
The seller knows what he's doing.
The description of "Miao silver" alone is more than enough to say "I know this ain't 'silver' but it's still 'silver' ".
This isn't any different from people that try to describe nickel as silver. Yes, it's silver colored but it's not silver.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
Ethics violation? I don't think so. It isn't represented as being genuine, and seller lists a lot of other coin-like paraphernalia. Caveat emptor.
I especially like the fat lion and the skinny lion. A real tramp art piece.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
I see we have both extremes adopted in relation to the ethics of posting a worthless item with a starting price of $50. Using the old ebay rules and the interpretation of ANA ethics we used the auction would have been terminated since the sale of a worthless fake for $50 is prima fascia fraud. The seller would have received a warning and a short suspension for the first infraction. If put to a vote I would vote to bar such a seller permanently. The fact that the seller provides adequate clues for the half way well informed buyer may of solace to some "sharp dealer types" but the intent of the auction is to make an obscene profit at the expense of a novice bidder. Auctions of this type were viewed as making ebay UNSAFE for new bidders. Getting swindled turns off most bidders when they find out and repeat business is good for ebay. We were referred to as ebay TRUST and safety after all. To quote from the ANA regarding ethics (which applies to dealers and collector members alike - and which is by reference made part of ebay rules)- ALL of the following are offenses for which TERMINATION is the punishment: Quote:
To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such. emphasis added and Quote:
To refrain from making unjustified and/or false statements or misrepresentations in my relations with others, and to fully cooperate in the advancement of our hobby and business in my relations with collector and dealer alike. and finally Quote:
To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate. The ebay item is not "CLEARLY" labeled a counterfeit. The statements made are UNJUSTIFIED MISREPRESENTATIONS that do not further the objectives of the hobby. The price is NOT COMMENSURATE with a fair profit. Sorry but this auction is an example of everything bad about some coin dealers. Profit driven greed at the expense of the uninformed is one of the lowest forms of fraud. And now ebay hides under "let the buyer beware". Edited by swamperbob
12/11/2014 01:09 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5394 Posts |
Proud member ANA 1127198 and absolutely agree with swamperbob |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I just found a very interesting on-line definition of Caveat Emptor which is clearly influenced by US consumer protection laws and if operative could be used against ebay in a class action suit because they sell so darned many coins. Here is the definition as found on http://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...+emptorQuote:
Caveat Emptor
[Latin, Let the buyer beware.] A warning that notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to all defects.
When a sale is subject to this warning the purchaser assumes the risk that the product might be either defective or unsuitable to his or her needs. This rule is not designed to shield sellers who engage in Fraud or bad faith dealing by making false or misleading representations about the quality or condition of a particular product. It merely summarizes the concept that a purchaser must examine, judge, and test a product considered for purchase himself or herself.
The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent.
Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise. One such Warranty is the Implied Warranty of merchantability. If a person buys soap, for example, there is an implied warranty that it will clean; if a person buys skis, there is an implied warranty that they will be safe to use on the slopes.
A seller who is in the business of regularly selling a particular type of goods has still greater responsibilities in dealing with an average customer. A person purchasing antiques from an antique dealer, or jewelry from a jeweler, is justified in his or her reliance on the expertise of the seller.
If both the buyer and the seller are negotiating from equal bargaining positions, however, the doctrine of caveat emptor would apply.
The auction also seems to fall under all of the prohibited parts of a caveat emptor defense enumerated above. |
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Valued Member
75 Posts |
Thanks, now I know never to buy coins from Northern Ohio Coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1063 Posts |
I think ebay should have a button which you have to click for coins and stuff like this. If it's fake, then they have to click a button which says it is fake. |
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Valued Member
75 Posts |
@augsburger Yes, like an acknowledgement that you understand that it is fake.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
I don't see much difference between selling this POS for $50, an 1870-cc $20 gold for $1.99, or a so-called "old bank roll" of Morgans for $3000 which are genuine, but which can't be returned under any circumstances. It is the buyer's responsibility to avoid being swindled by sellers flogging their merchandise. The buyer has to resist the tease, whether it is a perceived bargain or picker's discovery. The seller can argue that they made an honest mistake and should only be banned for repeated behavior. Overregulating sellers harms ebay's flea market character IMO. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
12/11/2014 08:53 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
thq The former rules for eBay-US actually followed the ANA rules - all items except for graded coins could be returned in the event of fraud. I have seen and supported many cases which overturned the "No returns" statement made by the seller in the auction. The No returns policy on an item that can not be seen before sale are unbalanced in favor of the seller. That is where Trust and Safety leveled the playing field. Under US law virtually everything sold is returnable under merchantability clauses in consumer protection laws. You say: Quote:Overregulating sellers harms ebay's flea market character IMO. Actually there were two divergent schools of thought on that issue at ebay. One saw the future of ebay as being built on long term returning customers - the other view looked at the immediate returns to the company. These are the two views that locked horns when the new management took over. As a supporter of the first view I believed that the supply of "new" customers for ebay was not actually endless. Like a flea market that gets a reputation for fraud suffers by word of mouth, we believed the coin section of ebay would devolve if not for enforcement of ANA rules. The alternate view looked at immediate profit margins and rates of return. The future was not considered. This of course will lead to an ebay built on coin fraud.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Is it just my inexperience, or does the portrait look completely bogus? Moreover, stating "non-ferrous" without promising authenticity...puts me on alert. |
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Replies: 23 / Views: 3,374 |
Posted 12/10/2014 6:21 pm
