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 Replies: 45 / Views: 5,972 |
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Valued Member
United States
254 Posts |
Hi everyone, The controversial Liberty Dollar (which I support, btw) has suffered a setback. Below is the e-mail I received this morning from Liberty Dollar as a member of the e-mail listserv. I really hope this all gets straightened out and the Liberty Dollar bounces back with a vengeance. These days, it is not too difficult to see the value of money 100% backed by silver and gold as opposed to our fiat currency, which continues to lose value daily. Comments? Regards, ~neuron ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty Dollar <truth@libertydollar.org> To: [me] Subject: FBI Raids Liberty Dollar - Confiscates All Ron Paul Dollar Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:07:59 -0500 (08:07 CST) Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters: I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville. For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts. We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money. But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken. This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too. The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people's hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form. I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions. Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don't let this happen! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal - to return America to a value based currency. Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation. Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back! If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the darn government and their dollar sinks to a new low. Bernard von NotHaus Monetary Architect |
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
As you know this is an issue that has a wide range of opinions...so please take no offense.
I am quite happy that this organization is no longer doing business. They create a coin that says "dollars" on it. It has no significant use in the real world except as a curiosity. I wouldn't mind having one just as a piece of exonumia. If someone came into my store and tried to pay with one I would turn them down because it is not and never will be excepted as a legitimate form of tender by any business. Their intentions might be honorable and I do not intend to question that. The fact of the matter is that it's a business...not a government organization that creates and maintains the legal form of currency that every single nation in the world respects.
I am looking forward to hearing everyone's opinions on this matter. Figured I'd break the ice
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2600 Posts |
GO, that just about sums it up for me.
Jim
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
I don't follow the Liberty Dollar, & don't have any opinion as to it's legality. I do know that if I felt like gold & silver were the only safe haven I would own bullion directly.
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Valued Member
 United States
254 Posts |
Although I'm not sure what the situation is after this morning's events, the Liberty Dollars were always 100% transferable to "regular" money. So if someone paid you with it and you accepted it but then decided that you wanted US dollars, you could just exchange it 1:1. I don't think there were any fees associated with such an exchange, but I'm not sure.
I'm also not 100% clear on the legality issues... I think the concern is that the Liberty Dollars were somehow challenging US Dollars, but I'm not sure what the charges are exactly. As far as I know, they ARE legal, AS LONG AS both parties understand that they are not US Dollars, and that acceptance is completely voluntary. It is essentially a barter agreement, which is legal per the constitution (e.g., I'll trade you my tractor for your team of horses). If someone tries to pass them off as US Dollars though, that would be illegal. That would be like trying to pay for your meal with Disney Dollars (except Liberty Dollars are better because you can exchange them for US Dollars... good luck trading your Disney Dollars back in... lol).
Would love to hear more thoughts!
Regards,
~neuron
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
quote:
These days, it is not too difficult to see the value of money 100% backed by silver and gold
Is any country in the world still on a gold standard? I seriously doubt it since no countries actually produce circulating gold and silver coinage. There is not enough available gold and silver in the world to back the entire US monetary system, much less the rest of the economies in the world. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
At the risk of 'piling on'--I know there are problems with fiat currencies, but I question the need as well as the practicality of backing currencies with metal. Why not use chickens or seashells or back hair? (I'd be a millionaire with one of those).
That said, I don't think the Liberty Dollar people or members of PETA or people who support Ron Paul are all total nut-jobs.
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Valued Member
United States
254 Posts |
I don't think any countries are still on the gold standard, but not necessarily solely for the rationale of supply limitations. I don't know all of the economics involved, but I do know that the value of the US Dollar is falling. We experience this as an increase in prices for goods... for example, gasoline prices fluctuate fairly quickly in response to changing dollar buying power. Note that there are other issues involved in gas prices including politics and supply, but the recent increase in the price of barrels of oil was mainly a result of lower dollar buying power which in turn resulted from the massive wave of mortgage foreclosures in the sub-prime market. This has affected the perception of the dollar, leading to stock market losses and a weakening of the dollar compared to other currencies.
This is also why more people are buying gold and silver... to hedge their other money against further loss. Perhaps I overstated with the "100%", but I wouldn't mind having all of my money in silver and gold right now... lol. This changes with the economy and life situation though, and is not for everyone. If I were retired and on a fixed income, I think it would make sense to have substantial reserves backed by relatively stable gold and silver, and little in more labile areas such as the stock market.
As far as the Liberty Dollar is concerned, it offers (offered?) an easy way to transfer money back and forth between fiat US Dollars and silver/gold/platinum-backed Liberty Dollars. Apparently they stepped over some boundary according to the US Government though... I'm just not clear on what that was.
I think what will make me most sad if the Liberty Dollar is shut down is that it was a really good idea (IMO) and ingenuity like that should be encouraged in America instead of punished (assuming, of course, that all was legal).
Regards,
~neuron
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
The concept can make since but the problem lies in the fact that no business will ever take them as a form of payment. The same reason they won't take any other form of silver bullion. Are they to assume that a $20 liberty dollar is still worth $20 when they take it?
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Valued Member
United States
254 Posts |
quote:
At the risk of 'piling on'--I know there are problems with fiat currencies, but I question the need as well as the practicality of backing currencies with metal. Why not use chickens or seashells or back hair? (I'd be a millionaire with one of those).
First of all, I hope no one feels as though they are "piling on" me... all opinions are welcome! I'm still trying to form my own opinions about all of this and also want to learn as many facts as possible in the process.  Second of all, great question! To paraphrase (extremely) loosely, "Why is anything worth anything?" US Dollars are worth what they are because the US Government says so... that's the basics of fiat currency. A representative currency such as the Liberty Dollar is backed by something tangible... oftentimes a metal such as gold or silver. However, it could just as easily be chickens, seashells, or *cringe* your back hair. So long as it is something considered generally universally desirable, I think you could get it to pass muster. People seem to like metals like gold and silver... probably in the past because they were rare (particularly gold) as well as attractive and relatively durable, but they are not without fault (e.g., they are heavy, difficult to transport safely, require mining and purification, subject to shaving, etc.). Chickens die, seashells break, and your back hair is undesirable (sorry... lol) although if you sheared it on a regular basis to weave clothing it might find more acceptance in colder areas. So I guess the question is, what is the perfect currency? And I don't think there is a right answer, other than "it depends". I'm getting off track a little, although I really like the discussion. Keep it coming! Regards, ~neuron |
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
I just think our culture is too fast paced to accept something like silver as a form of payment. The coins in question are not really "backed" by silver...they ARE silver. The price changes so I have no idea how they quote prices or would exchange it back for legal tender.
As far as businesses...None honestly have any time to take that silver libertys and transfer them to cash that they can depost into their accounts. It's a day to day business that can't wait for some coins to ship off and be traded over
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Valued Member
United States
254 Posts |
quote:
The concept can make since but the problem lies in the fact that no business will ever take them as a form of payment. The same reason they won't take any other form of silver bullion. Are they to assume that a $20 liberty dollar is still worth $20 when they take it?
There are a lot of businesses that have signed up to accept Liberty Dollars, and you could search for them based on your zip code. However, the ability to search seems to have disappeared, probably in response to today's events. Before today, yes- anyone accepting a $20 Liberty Dollar round or certificate could assume that it was worth $20 USD and could be exchanged 1:1 for such. However, given the confiscation of everything belonging to the organization by the FBI, my guess is as good as yours as to the value (if it was a silver round though, it is certainly worth at least melt value, and may have numismatic value as well depending on the issue and market). Regards, ~neuron Edited by neuron
11/19/2007 11:21 pm
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Valued Member
United States
254 Posts |
quote:
I just think out culture is too fast paced to accept something like silver as a form of payment. The coins in question are not really "backed" by silver...they ARE silver. The price changes so I have no idea how they quote prices or would exchange it beck for legal tender.
As far as businesses...None honestly have any time to take that silver libertys and transfer them to cash that they can depost into their accounts. It's a day to day business that can't wait for some coins to ship off and be traded over
Some (probably smaller) businesses would be more likely to accept Liberty Dollars or other alternative forms of payment. For example, my brother-in-law owns a comic book store and regularly takes in goods (e.g., older comics, silver rounds, etc.) as trade... although I believe he has to have a pawn shop license to do this and probably has to keep track of everything. Hassle for most businesses, viable for some though. Also, you could use certificates (like the old US silver certificates) to pay or even set up an electronic account to facilitate receiving, sending, and exchanging funds without ever holding a certificate or round. This requires a bit more work than if you were only dealing with US Dollars, but would be easier than mailing in stuff. But my guess is that if you weren't willing to deal with the hassles, you simply wouldn't accept them. If you were a proponent of the idea and wanted to offer the service, you would set aside time to deal with everything. Regards, ~neuron |
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Valued Member
United States
254 Posts |
Oh, I missed something in response to GO: you're right... the coins ARE silver, the rest (certificates and "e-Liberty Dollars", the electronic version) are 100% backed by silver. Also, to have something like silver or gold circulate, the face value has to be higher than the intrinsic value... that's why the $1 ASE that you paid $15 will never circulate, but a $20 face value Liberty Dollar (worth $15 in silver) will. As far as how much is in circulation, I don't know for sure, but the e-mail I posted insinuated that up to 19 million dollars worth is out there in coin form. I would bet that most of it isn't actively circulating, but it has been around for something like 10 years now and does have a secondary collectors' market. BTW... if you search for "NORFED" on ebay you are more likely to find what you are looking for, as "Liberty Dollar" will produce plenty of extraneous stuff. Make sure to search descriptions too. I only have a single $20 round from the ANA Milwaukee convention, but might start buying some older issues. If nothing else, I find the whole history of this organization interesting and wouldn't mind having a few items in my collection to remind me. Not sure if this would be considered exonumia, bullion, or what... but for whatever reason it appeals to me. Regards, ~neuron |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1952 Posts |
i don't have an opinion on the liberty dollar except that it will never circulate. because uncle SAM will never let it. but if I can get a one dollars coin for one dollar I would not have a problem with it as a novelty and that is all it is.
Gary
Edited by garylcsr
11/15/2007 3:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
The whole concept of money requires a consensus of the people to accept coins and currency as representative of some "value." That is the same whether we are talking about gold and silver coins or paper dollars, or electronic transactions. Gold, silver, platinum, diamonds, rubies, etc. have NO intrinsic value for humans except, perhaps, esthetic value. We collectively view them as valuable, hence they have value. (For the purists...yes, if you consider the commodity value of these items for use in industry, jewelry, etc., they have value beyond that established by consensus.)
That gold bullion you have buried in the basement is no more valuable than a stack of paper currency when it comes to the most basic needs of living things. (I.e., food, shelter, water) If the "end of civilization" came tomorrow, your canned food would be worth much more than its weight in gold! In fact, get hungry enough, and all the gold in Fort Knox would not be enough to buy a can of lima beans or brussel sprouts (my least favorite vegetables!)
So value of anything is determined by the context of the situation, by supply and by demand. Insisting that "money" be backed by silver or gold is fallacious. Why not Oil? Or ethanol? Or canned lima beans?
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Replies: 45 / Views: 5,972 |
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Posted 11/15/2007 12:35 pm
