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 Replies: 19 / Views: 2,284 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
THANK YOU!
I love it!  Ken, didn't initially realize that the 1861 3CS he had in his collection was a contemporary counterfeit. [Don't worry Ken, you're in good company as noted below.] Because I deal with these fairly often, I spotted it pretty quickly but wanted to be certain with larger pictures (shown below). There's so much that can be said about this one. It can be very deceptive to those who are not looking carefully or don't realize what they're seeing. These coins were created from hand-carved dies during the Civil War to be passed as currency allowing the counterfeiter to make a cent or so between the savings in metal content and face value of the coin. Once you start looking at the devices, all the oddities of the coin start jumping out at you. Oh yeah, it's also with a 180 degree reverse. This coin is in remarkable shape with very little wear. The valuation of these can be tough. I've basically paid around the value for what a real one would go for. I don't think they're too common and if you want one you'll have to pay the price. This is a case where it's not too bad to have a fake. I went to a local show today and showed 11 dealers and asked what they graded my two 3CS (I brought my other one, too) and what they'd pay. Only one of those 11 outright refused to offer and didn't want them at any price. He didn't like the way they looked. He was on the verge of saying they're counterfeit. All the others gave me a grade (which is a whole different story as most of these guys were not-so-good at grading 3CS) and a relative price. Many of the dealers graded the coin based on the worst struck part of the coins, the date. This is not really the way to grade 3CS but, regardless, none of them detected they were counterfeit. I told all of them what the coins really were and gave them some history behind why they were made. Some were very grateful and even a little embarrassed (although, I told them that was not my intention). The rest basically nodded their heads and thought that they were neat but still didn't care much for them. These dealers also told me that 3CS were pretty poor sellers in our area which I thought was bizarre. My impression from the coin community at large is that they're in demand and decent ones are tough to find. I was disappointed at what they were bidding on the coins, even if they were real. I basically paid multiples for them what they'd be willing to pay (if real). Since they're counterfeit, I don't think any of them had any interest at any price. Talk about a specialist market. [And, yes, I asked Ken if I could create a topic with the provocative title I used!]  
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Valued Member
United States
383 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
577 Posts |
Awesome - I never would have known that counterfeit pieces are actually worth something... Cool piece!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
Fascinating story and history! I'm a little surprised most dealers didn't spot this right off. The star/shield is a tad obvious, isn't it?
Btw, does anyone know a good dealer for an authentic 3CS? I'm looking for an 1872 in MS grade.
Edited by KurtS
12/01/2007 10:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3233 Posts |
The odd details, such as the star and shield, are only obvious when you've seen a lot of these coins and look close enough. At arm's length the coin looks like an XF45/AU50 coin with the only problem being some minor corrosion (rust?) in the middle of the shield. Of course, there would be no rust on an authentic coin.
Good luck finding an 1872 as a real business strike. That's a pretty rare coin. You might try Scarsdale or the auction circuit. You're also going to pay pretty strong for a decent coin and it will likely have nothing to do with Gray Sheet prices.
Edited by Prethen
12/01/2007 10:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
Well, I don't want to make light of detecting this...I guess the big photo made it so.
Thanks for the advice...I've might have to find an auction.
Edited by KurtS
12/01/2007 11:11 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1031 Posts |
That is a nice coin Prethen. I liked it enough to try to buy it from Nelrak. I was a little late and didn't get the coin, but the knowledge you provided on the coins history made it worth it. Thanks for the great information on the history of the coin. Nelrak does have some awesome coins.
I've bought some and may buy a few more!
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Valued Member
United States
393 Posts |
That's a fascinating coin. Are these counterfeits more common in a particular date?
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Great stuff, Prethen. I came into this thread thumbing shells into my shotgun, ready to pull the trigger on you.  Just for my own learning, I note on this example that the circles in the "C" are out-of-round, and the outlying stars are of irregular construction - one spine is noticeably thinner than the others. Furthermore, the placement of "OF" is way off relative to the other letters. Are these also indications that it's a counterfeit, or might these features be found on a real coin? I only own one, and I don't know that much about them. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2254 Posts |
Good pick ups Dave and kind of the same questions I was going to ask. Can you post another picture of a real example in the approximate grade as this one Prethen? I see what you're talking about with "of" and it may seem even further down due to the fact that they are trying to squeeze "states" in above the star so it has pushed the last "s" all the way to the rim...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2254 Posts |
Are you serious Prethen, you really want me to have the real 1860 you pictured? This is such a great forum with even better members.   Oh, almost forgot, thanks for the pictures.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
Here's a couple of shots of a genuine 1861. (Not bragging about the photos. I need to reshoot this coin some day. These were among the first photos I tried with my S3 IS.)   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
Lots of great info here..  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
974 Posts |
The kicker is the dealer I got it from thought it was real too! I had never seen one until the day I bought and slipped it into my type set I probably would have gone on thinking it was real.
It took a trained eye to pick it out as a 150 year old fake!
Nice Job, Prethen, I am glad you got to add it to your collection!
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
Apologizes for not knowing much about US numismatics and it's history but if it is a contemporary counterfeit, was it actually profitable to counterfeit such cents back in those days? I mean, what could 3 cents buy at that time?
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Replies: 19 / Views: 2,284 |
Posted 12/01/2007 10:36 pm
