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 Replies: 37 / Views: 3,594 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
Sounds good, I'll do it. Thanks.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Hate to be controversial here, but that sure looks like a lamination, especially on the left, not a die crack. The detail displacement between the upper and lower side of it in the hair seems too broad for a die break which includes practically nothing at the rim. Look closer. The detail pic argues more for a crack, but the full-face image presents itself clearly as a lamination. Therefore, I have to doubt.
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Moderator
United States
14463 Posts |
I am no expert, but even I think its a lamination issue. A die crack is generally a fairly straight line I believe, and a Cud is usually circular. A Cud that size would result in part of the reverse design missing. Is the reverse normal or is there design elements at 12 o'clock that are missing  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2563 Posts |
I agree that it looks like a lamination issue
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4932 Posts |
Brain damage/cracked skull lol.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5964 Posts |
This is just too nice of a coin for me to throw it in the unknown pile. There are experts and fine minds that have expressed opinions. Most opinions favor a Retained Cud. The question seems to be, does it reach the rim? Stoneman addressed this question with a horizontal die movement theory that is well over my head. Coop, I have learned more about coins from you than anyone. If you said it was a doubled die I would believe it,(almost). I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I did take this picture just for you. Please help the CoinMasters put a label on the holder.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3644 Posts |
I'm certainly not the expert opinion your looking for buddy but at first I was like 'definitely a crack' but after closer examination after reading stone man and bj's posts I definitely agree because I also think I see horizontal offset on the U of UNITED-can't see any vertical displacement but the horizontal is enough to make it Retained Cud I believe...hey,you ever send it to BJ? Edited by Slamnbass
08/28/2015 11:40 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
740 Posts |
Neat find CoinMasters! Look at RCD-1c-1984-02R on http://cuds-on-coins.com/retained-c...esent-rcd-2/ and compare to the black areas I pointed out on your coin. Notice the similar movement/slant of the rim? Also, since you have the coin in hand please check the gray areas as much as you can for any indication of the crack continuing. Because it is a 35 year old coin circulation might have taken the rim crack with it.  Edited by BlueSolo
08/29/2015 02:59 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts |
One of the reasons I call it a rim-to-rim die crack is because the wear involved at the rim prevents one from being 100% sure it actually cracked all the way through the rim. It may have and be hidden by wear but there is no positive evidence of it. There also does not seem to be any displacement of design suggesting that the piece of die in question is still connected to the body of the die. Additionally, very few obverse dies (what was the hammer die 99.9% of the time in those days), actually fell away to cause an actual Cud. As such, we have to assume that if gravity did not cause most dies like this to develop into known Cuds, that they probably weren't fully separated from the die and most probably never developed into full blow Cuds. To be a Retained Cud, the piece of die within the rim-to-rim die crack must be fully separated from the body of the die. Edited by koinpro
08/29/2015 09:18 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3331 Posts |
Quote:
very few obverse dies (what was the hammer die 99.9% of the time in those days), Is there a listing anywhere which shows hammer and anvil dies with information as to which was the Obverse? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts |
Pete, the cent dies of the time had a longer shaft for the reverse die so that it could eject the coin. That's probably still true.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts |
Here is a die that has a massive rim-to-time die crack. The crack is so severe that there is obvious displacement of design sitting at two different levels. A medal struck from this would surely be called a Retained Cud, yet the chunk of die within the circular crack is still well connected. The bottom line is that the lack of actual Cuds known for the majority of coins listed as Retained Cuds suggests that most are not really Retained Cuds by current definition.  Pay no attention to the notes about the Collar Clash and notice the rim-to-rim die crack within the lower half of the coin.  Notice the amount of metal displacement as the crack runs through the O or CONDE.  Metal displacement of the sword.  A side view of the right side of the rim-to-rim die crack showing how one side of the crack is up higher than the other. Edited by koinpro
08/29/2015 09:41 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4809 Posts |
Ken - your explanation seems to make sense. I guess I envision that an interior die break (retained Cud?) would perhaps have enough irregularities in the break to keep it from falling out with gravity where as one break rim-to-rim wouldn't. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts |
Rackster, if deep enough, I suppose it's possible that the retaining tooling could keep a piece of die in place but I'd really have to be a deep break. Otherwise, I would think the force of striking a coin alone would shake any completely separate piece of die loose and gravity would carry it away.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4809 Posts |
My thoughts exactly. I've seen a few dies where you could see the interior piece was retained and appeared as if you could move it with your finger (but it wouldn't move). But under tons of force, you would see that it was by the varied witness marks left on the subject items it was producing.
This was a good, informative thread!! I like these kinds of threads!
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Replies: 37 / Views: 3,594 |
First Page
Posted 08/19/2015 8:57 pm
