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 Replies: 13 / Views: 2,857 |
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
I would greatly appreciate your expert opinions on this coin. It was purchased back in the early 90's from one of the most reputable spanish auction firms as a Lima Mint 1772, with dot above both columns. I never questioned its authenticity until a few years ago when I posted it in another forum and a comment was made it may not be genuine. I take the opportunity of the presence here of so many spanish colonial experts to ask the question directly. Gilboy catalogues this type with dots above both columns as L-8-25B, R-4. So there is certainly incentive for dishonest activity. The coin weighs 26,95 grams. Compare this with the nominal weight for 8 reales columnarios at 27,0642 grams (per Gilboy) , and the average weight quoted by him for Lima Mint 8 Reales in Fine to VF condition at 26,5973 grams. The coin is therefore well within legal and observed weights for lima mint specimens. The surface is still somewhat reflective, and appears normal, not showing any of the telltale signs of a cast. The edge device however is a mess. The floral design is very indistinct. Another interesting feature is what appears to be remnants of an undertype. For example, remnants of an 'X' are clearly visible in the date area (as shown in photo, and much more visible in hand). Other letters weakly visible. Sorry for this long diatribe. Thought it may help to elucidate once and or all what this is: real or not. Thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the less than perfect photos.     |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
The design appears correct but all the elements appear slightly too thick and the mintmark does not look correct. I don't own an example of that variety but I do have one from 1771. Perhaps it's not a fair comparison but it does highlight the difference in one of the most noticeable areas.  The wear on the edge is not consistent with the obverse or reverse. And one of the areas that wears or typically suffers from weak striking, the device of the House of Bourbon, in the center of the coat of arms, appears in mint state! Definitely atypical wear pattern. Hopefully the real experts will chime in soon. Edited by jgenn
10/12/2015 11:43 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Germany
1849 Posts |
Thank you, jgenn for you interesting comments. I had not really paid attention to it, but you are right, the mintmark appears weakly struck and to lack a bar (at least a strong one) across the 'A'.
This may be one sign of a careless copy job. I'll take a closer look next time I go the safety deposit box.
Hopefully others will also chime in?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Disregarding the sloppiness pointed out on some of the lettering, plus the obvious edge issue... given the overall look/surfaces of the coin (the tone, the honest looking circulation hits, some spits of planchet stress around the periphery), you would have to think the piece is genuine. Regarding that mess of an edge pattern... just thinking logically, I can't see how a forger would get such good looking surface/tone and then leave the edge design looking like that. My guess is that it was mounted in something and a fairly careful job was done in removing it. The lettering, etc. sloppiness is odd... but if nothing else, the piece appears to be at least the same pillars-side die as this one - note the identical ghosting you observed (it's obviously die clash) between the waves and the date... and similarly weak bars on the LIMAE mintmark: http://coins.ha.com/itm/peru/world-...ption-071515 |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Everything looks good to me though I don't own one piece of this coin. You can sell it to me if you still think it is fake, Germanicvs. The bar across the letter "A" still present but I think it was weakly struck.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Germanicvs First off I hope you realize how scarce that coin really is. Whoever bought the HA auction specimen listed above literally stole that coin. I can remember when it was listed in Krause as unique back 20 years ago (pre Gilboy Book and the internet providing an abundance of updated information.) I'm no good at determining fake/real based on a photograph or two of a coin but nothing on that coin jumps out at me as fake. Almost all the fake ones I have seen, and I have seen many, messed up badly on the shape of the "2" in the date, yours looks good to me. Here is another example for comparison along with a 72 single dot. My double dot has a few tiny chop marks but is dead on for weight and edge detail.     |
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
Thank you Realeswatcher, wonghinghi, and jfransch for your input. You have made some very interesting comments. I really appreciate them.
Thank you also for the link to the HA auction. I don't know how I missed that.
I was really puzzled by this coin - as mentioned, the edge device is rough and indistinct, but the planchet shows no signs of casting. It even shows some reflectivity in areas (which the pictures do not bring out).
I knew that it was a scarce coin when I bought it, and in fact it did not come cheap. A Lima 1772 double dot had just been auctioned back then (early 90's) by Superior, and I clearly recall it brought more than $2K.
That may have been the only known coin back then? This one, purchased a few months later in Spain did not cost anywhere near that, but it was still a considerable amount. I am relieved.
Thank you all again.
Edited by GERMANICVS
10/14/2015 12:28 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
jfransch,
Thank you for posting your 1772's. They are both beautiful coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Jfransch, that single-dot piece is very nice... RE: the scarcity/desirability of the various permutations created by dot presence or lack of on the Lima pillars... not my area of specialty, but from my dabblings, I kind of wonder: A) exactly how many people really care about the many varieties B) as with any series where hyperspecialization comes into vogue and gets codified (as Gilboy did), you wonder how the perception of availability of a specific variety is skewed/influenced by what pieces may be lying in the hands of those who don't really care Anywho, here are a few other examples of double dot (just cruised MCsearch - didn't check Goldberg, Stack's/Ponterio's individual archives more thoroughly): http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=576736http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=806877http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1027537Then, curiously, here is a single (chopped) specimen with NO dots. The holder (parroted in the auction listing) incorrectly calls it KM78, which is that for the portrait 1772 and following. If I'm reading this right, this should be "A64.3" - which is only shown for 1766 and 1768 on the NGC site's Krause mirror, as was the case in my 2002-ish Spain/New World Krause book: http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2324520 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Realeswatcher Excellent questions. As for how many people really care, the fewer the better as far as I am concerned. Less competition at auction when a variety I do not have comes up for sale. I only know a small handful of people that collect Lima Pillars by date and half of them don't collect varieties. As far as how many are out there and the owners don't care about the variety, probably more than we think. Hopefully over time they will appear on the market and find a home with a collector who does care. Population numbers constantly change on coins as new specimens are discovered (think 1933 US Double Eagle) and occasionally hoards are uncovered but I doubt anyone is holding a large quantity of scarce Lima pillars waiting for the right time to dump them on the market. But of course I could be wrong. All part of the joy of collecting 250 year old coins. People collecting 1903 O Morgan dollars probably felt the same way in the early 1960's and boy were they in for a surprise. By the way, will you be attending USMexNA in a few days? I would enjoy meeting you. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
I'd strongly suggest the specimen in question be analyzed via XRF. That single test ought to identify it as or eliminate it from being either a contemporary counterfeit or modern forgery.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1304 Posts |
The "X" in the date isn't undertype, it is clashing from the X in REX. Die clashing lends more evidence in my eyes that this is a genuine piece.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Jfransch... no, not going to make it cross-country for that. I guess that was this past weekend... hope you enjoyed if made it down there - the lineup of names involved (and the collectors that draws) certainly make it a worthwhile event.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 2,857 |
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Posted 10/13/2015 2:58 pm
