New Discovery? Ireland Gun Money 1690 Crown KM#103.1

Interesting piece, it is odd that they would use that much antimony (or lead, for that matter).
Just a quick question - what exactly is gun money?

Yes - the infamous 1933? China coin made of antimony. Its been discussed here before. It HAS TO BE a lead/antimony alloy. Question is how much of each metal.

I agree - normally with this type of alloy I would think later counterfeit - BUT - its an over-strike as you can see traces of the HOST COIN right below the back end of the horse.

Went to Heritage and viewed past auctions but all pieces are of the common brass issues. Most intentional struck issues normally have Antimony around 1% or LESS as in Papal Seals (Vatican) and the American political exonumia Bryan Money cataloged by Schornstein. I once owned over 50 Bryan pieces so I am very familiar with their XRF assays which I never published. Sold as part of my Stacks 2008-2010 selling dumps. Fascinating series. Both confirmed on several examples in the past by me in the lab.

Antimony was first used in coinage around the 16thC it seems from Wilkepedia as to harden medals mostly composed of lead. My guess moving forward any medal you see in lead WILL HAVE some antimony to induce hardness so its does not yield to easy circulation damage.

IMO two things take this away from the 19thC or 20thC - its overstike on a host as per the KM description and its super HIGH 10% antimony. BTW its also PLAIN EDGE. Just reporting here and hoping for both positive and CRITICAL comments. Prefer ... critical ...

JPL

Numisma - with contemporary counterfeits and/or Modern Fakes (19thC to present in this case) its always the DEGREE of probability.

BTW - The EDGE is old and worn (not pictured) ... so I use that as a barometer for a MODERN FAKE as with all Chinese fakes the edges look like they were struck last week if Plain Edged. More difficult of course if milled ... still .... Extremely difficult to age or reproduce a 100+ year old edge. Just saying ...

Just a gut feeling if you look in KM it says many varieties exist ... as one comment said maybe other alloys exist? with this turbulent anything goes gun money period ... although I will admit this lead/antimony alloy is a far cry from the regular gun money alloy as in my Mitchiner example from this classic paper. This paper is Internet retrievable and a great overview of common alloys for coins in this period.

JPL

KM lists the gold and silver issues only in Proof. Not sure here but in either case irrelevant for this coin. Pewter from Wilkepedia:

Pewter is a malleable metal alloy, traditionally 85-99% tin, with the remainder consisting of copper, antimony, bismuth and sometimes, less commonly today, lead. Silver is also sometimes used. Copper and antimony act as hardeners while lead is common in the lower grades of pewter, which have a bluish tint. It has a low melting point, around 170-230 °C (338-446 °F), depending on the exact mixture of metals.[1] The word pewter is probably a variation of the word spelter, a term for zinc alloys (originally a colloquial name for zinc).[2]

IMO catalogers have called coins pewter if the lead level were low and had copper and tin introduced at HIGHER levels. A lead level at this level without XRF is normally just called LEAD with never a mention of antimony.

I guess it will always be considered a contemporary counterfeit due to its high lead. It has supporting XRF spectrograph of a high antimony level which is rarely seen. Not sure if anything came up in the GNL CC8R research venture with a similar mix?

It's interesting a no center plug are considered legit which KM does not supply this tidbit - another positive for this coin but ownership is worth 5-10 points. LOL.

I guess the answer lies in XRF analyzing some of these so-called pewter issues in the British Museum, NMOI or the Ulster and see what pans out ... at the NYITL I will show it to Del Parker ... to be continued.

Its been my experience however when you show someone a lead LOOKING coin their UPBRINGING usually DRAGS DOWN the coin. Just saying ...

JPL

Thanks again ... my piece is medal turn (i.e., concurs with the up arrow rev. alignment) and its 32 mm and 13.6 grams.

Seems the pewter is anything goes? Yes - sure like to XRF some of these other pewter specimens ...

JPL

I do collect overstruck coins but do struggle to see the underlying features.

As for the status of this coin, I am not comfortable calling this a contemporary counterfeit yet. There can be a strong possibility that it may be genuine given the circumstances. From my understanding, coins were struck with practically any metal that was available which ranged from cannon metal to church bells. If lead was available, I cannot see why they were not used as well. I suspect that the public were quick to reject such coins immediately and the survival rate would be very low. If the details match exactly the same as a genuine coin, I personally would like to consider this as an off metal.

John Newman is good and has an eye of the HIGHEST level for counterfeits and regals. About two years ago he found an extremely rare British 1/2d CC. Lets just say for the CRUDE types it easily ranked in the top 12 say as in the Stacks 2008 Americana Ringo Collection for these types and expected price realization. Although prices have dropped I would say $1500+ he could have received if consigned to Stacks/Bowers IMO. I E-Mail'd him but was satisfied to keep it on E-Bay. It brought close to $700.
Having said that he termed this contemporary counterfeit for whatever reason but was unaware of the alloy. Perhaps some people feel only brass or some form of brass/bronze is good.

Remember today with most auction houses not analyzing the coins and catalogs (as in KM) in the same state - some KM issues maybe as several are hinting here too reserved for just one type of alloy - particularly for gun money.
The only clear under-type feature in the pic here in this thread is between the third and fourth legs of the horse left to right. There are other remnants but need coin in hand.
As I said most lead alloys I have seen with just high lead Sb is normally 1-3%. In terms of it being regal - That is an interesting idea and one I suspect of these pewter types say if we did XRF these pewter types in advanced collections and/or museums perhaps OTHERS would show this type of high Pb/SB alloy and then possibly this is a regal and not CC of the period and KM would have to be refined. So what else is new .... LOL.

This is one reason I did this new book with over 700 coins having full XRF analyses and references at times as to their alloys - Canadian,British,France,Ireland,Spain, etc... also the modern Chinese fakes are explained and their alloys.

JPL

Numisma - from andyg's very informative post in this thread Coincraft's IECR-105 seems VERY possible. Again pewter in many cases is just a generic term used loosely when the originator is just GUESSING at the alloy. As an example I have examined DOZENS of coins in which collectors, top end auction house catalogers, so-called experts who have called something bronze which was actually low zinc brass. Since the zinc in brass really needs to be >10% for it to exhibit a yellow color even in high grades. Confirmed multiple examples are in my new book on this misnomer due out later this year.

JPL