NGC S-158 Variety Plus Page Includes A Fake

Earle ... A fine synopsis ... Amen.

I suspect that those more likely stung by these latest counterfeits will be investors, the commodity guys, as opposed to the true collectors, those who seriously study their coins.

Yes they did......about a week after the specialists told them about them. And in press releases that made it sound like the TPG had discovered them.

Steele: "If they don't have the time to verify whether a coin is fake or genuine they should not be in the business of verifying coins."

It is not about TIME and should not be about time. Did you know that long ago (I'm showing my age) some dealers were making jokes that the "early" authentication services were taking weeks and months to declare a coin was genuine or not. On some occasions when their consultants were divided Good/Not good the coin was returned with No OPINION. That happens today too.


Now, what part of State-of-the-Art counterfeit don't you understand? THEY FOOL EVERYONE until they are finely detected. Think about this...If the fakers only made five of this particular cent, it would take some time before an expert on large cents got a hold of one. Then he should have a dilemma. Humm, never saw a "Y" like this on this S#. Coin looks 100% genuine, Sp Gr OK, weight OK. Did the die wear oddly and stretch the letter? Did they touch up the die? Let's show this puppy around at the next EAC meeting. Humm, some experts say genuine, some don't know for sure, some say bad. Get the idea how authentication works with SOTA C/F's? Guess what: After lots of time passes and #2 of five shows up that was bought by another LC expert (perhaps a thousand miles away - thank God for the Internet)and they are able to match contact marks - all the LC experts and TPGS that said it was genuine WOULD BE WRONG! Everyone here should be thankful for the TPG's and the tireless job they do.

52Raymo: Oh I think Bobby can hold his own around here.....and then some.

So far, I've seen nothing to speak of. I can't wait until he shows it and throws useful info instead of rocks.

@dipper


Time is not as important as the TPGs make us think it is in their grading process.

Upon re-entering this hobby a few years ago I contacted an old friend who had made his living as a respected and known dealer (owned Certified Coins, Erie, PA then moved on) for "tips" on what had changed in my absence.

He told me he spent time at a TPG as a grader. He also told me that since the graders were paid by piecework, there was always a rush by the graders to get through as many coins as they could. He did not like this and does it no more.

He explained the rush is why people could crack out a good coin and keep sending it in until they got a grade they liked. He cited just one of many examples as being a Seated quarter which was sent in 7 times until it came back as the next tier /value up and therefore worth thousands more.

My LCS dealer told me he sends in monster boxes of ASE's each year. After doing some questioning of other dealers at the coin shows he attends, he found that 20% of the ASE's in a monster box is the consistent number that comes back as MS70s. He is totally convinced they just open the box and pull out a certain number to make MS70s. But since people generally look at the slab and trust the grade, the masses don't notice.

As in my previous posting, I got an MS70 from PCGS as a promotional and the quarter had a noticeable gash in the rim. This slabbed quarter screamed "marketing ploy." And although just one incident, it totally supports the above information.




Which is yet another tool that the "experts" should be able to utilize on a daily basis to make sure they don't make such obvious errors. It is not a case of the counterfeits being good enough to fool the experts if the error is obvious to "non-experts at a TPG" looking over posted pictures.

A simple graphics overlay (for those who deal with graphics it is simple) of the known types would solve the problem (for now until the counterfeiters start this also). And, this technology could actually be implemented by computers. Again - the tech was around back in the 90s. A machine I used to use 20 years ago at Erie Plastics in the QR department scanned machined pieces (down to the micron) pointing out where quality control specs were not being met.

Think of it - even our computers AT HOME can have face recognition tech nowadays. Surely companies as large as the TPGs could have at least the 1990s tech to scan each coin quickly as it came in. The speed of modern tech now as compared to the 90s would make this almost instantaneous. The comnputer doulc recognize, at the micron level - a fake.

But again, TPGs are not yet willing to release the computer-grade tech they could have had (and DID pay big bucks to develop) in the 90s. They were milking the public for every cent they could until the time they will market the compu-grading and make more even money by having people think they need to have everything re-slabbed.

And if the TPGs HAD put computer grading into play back in the 90s, the initial wave of counterfeits likely would have failed miserably anyway. The large fake-maker manufacturing companies might not have received the revenue to make more.

Talk to people who have been involved with TPG mechanics (not disgruntled people) and it becomes obvious there is a lot of misplaced faith in them. But without putting forth as good a front as they can, they obviously would not be in business.

Again this post is not meant as a negative towards people liking slabs. If a person likes them - collect them and enjoy them. They can look great lined up. But people involved know it is far from the de facto science they want people to believe it is - and that false mindset is what keeps them going and growing.

Three "expert" graders look at each coin individually and give their grade opinion. When the "experts" disagree, they review it and come up with a consensus before final slabbing.

Granted it seems like a good system. But again, the graders are rushed to get the coins through so they get more pay. So as humans do we think the pressure to move pieces might speed up the consensus process also? Then we need to remember the experts are fully aware the average Joe needs to be reminded to buy the coin and not the slab. They know people won't necessarily notice the mistakes they make.

He told me he spent time at a TPG as a grader. He also told me that since the graders were paid by piecework, there was always a rush by the graders to get through as many coins as they could.

He is possibly an old-timer who worked for PCGS WHEN THEY WERE DOING THAT. I know of no TPGS that pays by the piece Soooo, maybe someone can check your FACTS!

Well alrightee then, guess they better improve their vetting process before they showcase any more fake coins.