Swamperbob Got A New Counterfeit From A Dealer.

When NGC grades and slabs, does that not imply that they have authenticated it (consider it genuine) as well?

TypeCoin971793 One comment you made touches on a key issue concerning what the dealer believed.




To understand the answer to your question you need to understand what Sheffield Plate actually is. It is a sandwich of metal where two thin outer plates of 90% silver (92.5% in the UK) are fused to a central ingot of copper. The composite mass is then rolled as you would a fillet ingot of solid silver. They key to the metals in the sandwich is that they behave as if they were a homogeneous alloy. The metals stretch, bend and perform in all respects as if they were a solid 90% silver copper alloy.

This includes surface flow when struck so that MS examples of Sheffield Plate counterfeits DO HAVE mint luster. That is one reason why they were so successful as counterfeits. The surface is actually 90% silver so acid tests do not work. The surface plate is many times thicker than electroplates of silver. And most critically the color of the coin is correct unlike electroplates where pure elemental silver is deposited on the surface. So they can even fool low power XRF tests.

Your opening comment now needs to be examined.




Humm? Do I?

oriole You say:




The answer is of course yes. NGC says they do not slab counterfeits. However, I own several slabbed counterfeits done by NGC so we know they do make errors. I have a few contemporary counterfeits that were slabbed and a couple recent Chinese forgeries as well. In addition to counterfeits I also pick up TPG error slabs when I run into them.

Just yesterday on another forum I pointed out a couple contemporary counterfeits sold by Heritage. One was an NGC slabbed 8 reales.







So just to restate the old truism - Buy the COIN not the SLAB. TPGs do make errors. Keep your eyes open and your wallet closed.

gymcoachdon I am waiting as well. Over 100 people have read the post only three have replied.

spence You are basically correct.

Should NGC have graded the coin? That is a slightly qualified Yes. There is some post strike damage limited to the small Z shaped scratch that was in fact used to peel off a surface lamination in the silver. The fact that the silver lamination is present is visible in the last picture I posted. I chose that picture because it shows rather accurately that a thin sheet of silver (possible debris) was on the surface of the planchet when struck. It extends over the rim onto the edge slightly. If you look at the letter R in the final picture above you can see a line diagonally crossing the R rising from the left to the right.

This line is where the scrap meets the planchet. The scratch removed a small detached piece of the lamination above the seam. The black color underneath is silver oxide or silver sulfide. I was wondering if it could be copper fire scale but the planchet would have been annealed and bathed in acid just before striking so it is unlikely to be copper fire scale provided the scrap piece of silver entered the coining chamber with the planchet.

I do not believe the scrap was rolled onto the ingot because it crosses over to the edge.

I first noticed the mark on the R and followed it both terminations. The seam is actually visible on the very first picture. See below where I highlighted the seam and where it crosses to the edge:



I would have hoped that NGC would have noticed the retained strike through but since they were not asked to slab the coin as an error I can let it slip.

The answer to question number 2 is NO - the coin is not counterfeit. It is not a Sheffield plate coin.

I'm very glad that turned out as it did. Without paying the extra $15 and an additional 5 business days waiting, even a coin with an error won't be listed as such on the holder.

Retained struck through debris, interesting that it looked similar to Sheffield plate. Thanks for the post!

Happen to overhear a dealer and patron next to me at a show over the weekend... Guy showing the dealer some oddities including an XF-AU or so Morgan with a big lamination or strike-through on the cheek (maybe 4 mm? I peeked quickly). Their concurred reaction was more "eh, yuck" than "oh, interesting".

This piece has that very typical early S-mint soft, deep luster... I'm always a big fan of knowing what the surfaces of a given series should particularly present as - it's an easy cheat to help confirm things.

I was wondering if the ring(sound) of a Sheffield Plate coin would be that of a pure silver coin. I know in this example it is slabbed but if a raw coin were Sheffield Plated would the ring sound different ?