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2007 Chinese Holed Coin Vs. 2016 Yin Yang Holed Coin

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CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
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commems's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2016  2:01 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I thought I'd start a new thread comparing the weights of the 2007 "Chinese" $8 coin with the 2016 "Yin Yang" $8 coin vs. burying it in the thread about June releases.

To bring everyone up to speed, the new 2016 "Yin Yang" coin is the RCM's second coin to have a square hole cut out of its center - the first was the "Chinese" coin released in 2007. Based on their diameter, it appears that both coins were struck on what started out as RCM's standard SD planchet of the time. The weight of the new coin is listed as being less than the current SD planchet while the 2007 coin had a published weight that was the same as the SD planchet. This discrepancy was brought to the fore in recent discussions and led CC-Ottawa to ask if anyone had a theory as to why this was the case. I offered that it was most likely a typo by the Mint back in 2007.

So, I got out my 2007 "Chinese" coin to weigh it and compare what I found against the weight published online for the coin. What I found was quite interesting.

The RCM web site lists the coin as being 36.07 mm in diameter and having a weight of 25.18 grams. These specs are a perfect match to the two commemorative silver dollars issued in 2007 - the "Celebrating Thayendanegea" and "Celebration of the Arts" coins.

When I checked the specifications included on the COA that came with my coin, the diameter listed matched what was published on the RCM web site but the weight did not. The COA indicated that the weight was 23.99 grams - 1.19 grams (4.7%) lighter than the figure on the RCM web site. The lighter weight makes sense, of course, considering that a square hole was punched/cut out of the planchet.

The plot thickened, however, when I weighed my coin. I expected 23.99 grams (or thereabouts) but my digital scale read 23.04 grams. So, my coin was less than what the COA indicated by 0.95 grams and less than a standard 2007 SD planchet by 2.14 grams (8.5% less)! (Note: As a calibration test for my scale, I also weighed two different silver bullion pieces known to be one troy ounce - the scale showed the expected weight for both.)

The listed weight of the 2016 "Chinese Yin Yang" coin is 20.86 grams. This seems like too big of a drop from the standard weight of the SD (25.18 grams) and/or the weight of my 2007 coin (23.04 grams) until you realize that the RCM lowered the weight of its SDs from 25.18 grams to 23.18 grams back in 2012. So, subtracting 20.86 from 23.18 we get 2.32 grams. This is a fairly close match to my coin's weight difference of 2.14 grams (certainly much closer than the 1.19 gram difference listed in the 2007 COA).

So, my current thinking is that not only is the RCM web site incorrect in its weight specification for the 2007 "Chinese" coin, but so is the RCM's COA for the coin. If the dimensions of the hole of the new coin match the hole of the 2007 coin, it will be fairly conclusive evidence that the RCM made mistakes in both media back in 2007.


PS I just noticed that the "Yin Yang" coin has moved to "Awaiting Stock" on the Mint's web site. I know that it doesn't mean much in terms of ultimate market availability for the coin, but with a limit of two per household it does indicate at least some initial interest in the piece.


Edited to correct spelling error.
Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
Edited by commems
06/05/2016 7:13 pm
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canadian_coins's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2016  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian_coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As usual, great post commens. This new issue brings back old memories... I eventually sold mine:

2007-Chinese-Holed-Coin-Vs.-2016-Yin-Yang-Holed-Coin
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 Posted 06/05/2016  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silveroid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great research, Commems. Thank you!

You PS section for people, who usually start to look at the coin, only if it close to"sold out"
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Dcadon's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 06/06/2016  10:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dcadon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An email from my rep today indicates that this coin is in "SELL OUT ALERT: The Tiger and Dragon Yin and Yang"
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CC-Ottawa's Avatar
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 Posted 06/06/2016  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CC-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fully admit that I don't know much about TPGs but wouldn't a graded coin be checked for weight? Do any of the TPGs post that information about graded coins on-line that could be searched?

My 2016 volume of Charlton shows 25.18g and 36.1mm x 2.9mm.

The mint.ca doesn't show a thickness measurement for the 2016 or the 2007. Wonder if they differ.

What about Krause? What do they show for the 2007?

Oddly, the coin was available for sale late last night but back to awaiting stock/wait list now.
Edited by CC-Ottawa
06/06/2016 12:53 pm
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New1954's Avatar
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 Posted 06/07/2016  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add New1954 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The yin-yang, the maple leaves and the platinum maple leaves are all available at Gatewest Coins this morning. London Coin Centre has them as well. I believe that the RCM has a strategy in place for the "wait list" and "awaiting stock" status of coins.

@commens

The RCM website consistently has errors. For example, The 5 coin illusion series was listed as a 4 coin illusion series. I had to bring it to their attention in the Question column in order for them to fix the problem which they thanked me for. There is always room for human error input on the RCM site or any other.
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CC-Ottawa's Avatar
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 Posted 06/07/2016  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CC-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But it's not just a simple input error on a website. The official specs for the coin as noted on the COA and in every piece of reference material I have seen appear to be wrong. That is a serious integrity issue IMO.

As collectors, we trust the Mint to ensure they provide specs and even mintage numbers that are 100% accurate. Sure mistakes can happen but we are nearly a decade out from the release of the 2007 coin. How can it be that over all these years, the error has gone undetected and uncorrected. It truly is a mystery.

It definitely appears that the 2016 is sold out at the Mint. I'd expect with 20k 2007 coins in collectors hands, at least 7000 of them will want the complimentary 2016 coin even though the Mint put a steep premium on it.

Looking forward to seeing the new coin in hand and for commems to put it on a scale.
Edited by CC-Ottawa
06/07/2016 10:44 am
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 Posted 06/07/2016  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Looking forward to seeing the new coin in hand and for commems to put it on a scale.


Me too! This newly released coin and it's holey older sibling, very interesting. Aside from the differing weights, I'd hope the unexpected sequel might inspire newer NCLT collectors to consider theme collecting, offering the appeal of focus and connectivity. Buying past releases that are most often reasonably priced is also an ideal way to offset overall cost depreciation.

It's sort of amusing this one wasn't predicted to sell out so soon but the maze coin was - seems an indication that the NCLT collector market is somewhat more seasoned than one might assume.
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CC-Ottawa's Avatar
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 Posted 06/07/2016  11:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CC-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It's sort of amusing this one wasn't predicted to sell out so soon but the maze coin was


I'll do my best "Don Cherry" and quote myself from May 30th on the first page of the June release thread.


Quote:
I like the $8 Yin Yang coin too as it will complement the similar 2007 ....

I'm disappointed by the maze coin. I assume that is the one that some folks have been referring to as a 'puzzle'. Can't image spending hours getting a ball to roll around on my coin and through a maze.


PS. just hurt my arm patting myself on the back.
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commems's Avatar
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12258 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2016  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Looking forward to seeing the new coin in hand and for commems to put it on a scale.

I did order the coin (one of my select non-SD purchases) and will definitely weigh it once it arrives. It may be a while, however, as it takes longer for coins to make it down to me here in the US than to all of you "local" collectors in Canada.


Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 06/08/2016  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still got to say that it's seems a very quirky coincidence that back in February Commems wrote an excellent feature post on the 2007 $8 Chinese coin and then, low and behold, in June a partner version just happens to be released.

https://goccf.com/t/252119

Commems, so it seems you might have pull and therefore I wonder if you might be interested in illustrating the virtues of the 2014 $20 Stained Glass coins - the Craigdarroch Castle and Casa Loma - the remainder of the series then disappeared into never-never-land?

Just joking but considering the two were not a major hit at the time, to my way of thinking historical glass windows really ought to be just as popular as the similar technique used to highlight the colourful segments on the Pysanka Easter egg.

I think NCLT releases that link with others in the past are an excellent way to keep the hobby a little more interesting!
Edited by wildflowerAB
06/08/2016 12:27 pm
CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
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commems's Avatar
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 Posted 06/08/2016  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Commems, so it seems you might have pull...

If only it were true that I wielded such power and influence! Sadly, I do not.

(If I did, there would be no painted SDs!)


Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
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commems's Avatar
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12258 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2016  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think NCLT releases that link with others in the past are an excellent way to keep the hobby a little more interesting!

I agree. It's only when the number of connected coins grows too large too quickly that there is a problem.

I'm hoping the RCM doesn't suddenly go on a "square hole" tear and release a slew of new issues and thus diminish the novel nature of these. Another one in a couple/few years - fine. Three more next year - not so good!


Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 06/08/2016  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Quote:

I'm hoping the RCM doesn't suddenly go on a "square hole" tear and release a slew of new issues and thus diminish the novel nature of these.


Very true, there's that to consider, painted or bejewelled too.....
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CC-Ottawa's Avatar
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3690 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2016  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CC-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A pic and a scan.

2007-Chinese-Holed-Coin-Vs.-2016-Yin-Yang-Holed-Coin

2007-Chinese-Holed-Coin-Vs.-2016-Yin-Yang-Holed-Coin

Yes it's going back to the Mint. Nasty scratch right on the Yin and Yang.
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Looney4Numi's Avatar
Canada
659 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2016  7:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Looney4Numi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@CC-Ottawa

Too bad about the scratch. Otherwise, a beautiful coin!
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