Is Ebay Hurting Itself In The Long Run

I lost faith in ebay long ago for this very reason. The top executives at the bay will continue to allow this as long as someone (in this case many someones) will buy the products. I don't foresee ebay shutting down anytime soon but in the long run they may need to change their name to eFake.

I am going to push back more than a little on this.

Yes, there are some Counterfeit items which are listed and sold on ebay. However, a quick read through of many of the things cited in these reports are misleading, at best.

1. As this is a coin forum, lets start with what ebay is doing in that venue. As many of you see on a regular basis, yes, there are counterfeits being listed, but the great majority get axed before any type of sale. I have found them to be more than concerned with this problem, and that they certainly have and are making their best effort to curtail those who do sell counterfeit coins on their venue. At any venue where coins are sold, there will attempts to sell counterfeits, either due to ignorance or worse on the part of some sellers. I recently had a dealer try to sell me some rather obvious counterfeit gold minors at a show. Not every transaction in every venue can be policed 100% of the time. If someone is offering you a $1000 coin for $100, use some common sense.

2. The recent article cited has the following line:



Sounds pretty awful, right? In July, there were over 1 BILLION listings live. Listings, not total number of items, which, based off of multi quantity listings and such, I would guess would be significantly higher. Also, this article states that these numbers they give were total number of items, which means that if they identified one listing with 5,000 available, that would have been counted as 5,000 items... So, while the original number sounded pretty damming out of context, in context, that actually sounds fairly amazing that the number is so low... I can take a train into NYC and go down to Canal Street and have access to just as many, if not more, counterfeit or unbranded items (For context, check out some news articles for busts in that area- NYC police have seized as much as 22 Million worth of goods in a single sting)

3.


I could not disagree with that statement more. ebay makes money of sales, but in the long run, it really makes money as buyers return to make more purchases. If a buyer gets burned, and no longer wishes to use their platform, then they will lose out on all future sales from that person. A fairly strong incentive to stop as much in counterfeit sales as possible, wouldn't you think?

4.


If anything, the feedback system in ebay is grossly skewed to the buyer. Sellers cannot do anything as far as non-positive feedback toward any buyer, for any reason. Buyers can leave any find of feedback, for any reason, just or unjust. The idea that ebay falsifies or skews feedbacks in the favor of the seller is just flat out incorrect.


5.


A lot has changed since 2008. PCGS has a very strong presence in China themselves now. I doubt if you got in touch with someone at PCGS today, 8 years later, they would say anything of the sort. There are many serious and legitimate dealers of coins in both China and Hong Kong, and many very serious collectors. However, to write off one of the largest (and growing) markets in the world like that would simply be unfair to the legitimate dealers and collectors of that country.


For a bit of context, I make my living nearly exclusively through ebay sales now, and I know there are quite a few others on this forum that do as well. Unfortunately, many times people make false assumptions based on incomplete facts or context, and they make a decision that ' ebay is bad'. Anytime there is an entity which relies on so many people, there will be the good and the bad. From my experience, the good far outweighs the bad on ebay...

ebay will not be hurt by it. there is clearly a market for all these items - which says more about society than it does ebay.

Very measured and thoughtful discussion here.

Thanks for the well thought out counterargument, joeysanders627. One of the best parts of a forum like this is the ability to keep debates respectful and civil, unlike in so many other venues...




I disagree. The same fraud that a buyer is concerned with effects me and my business in a few ways. First off, if I have a loyal customer who is burned in a transaction with another unscrupulous dealer, and leaves the platform entirely, I have money coming straight out of my pocket. Secondly, any business must always being going after new customers. If potential new customers are afraid of dealing with a platform because they are concerned about fraud on the platform, that will keep my business from being able to reach these potential new customers. Therefore, from a sellers perspective, I CERTAINLY am just as concerned with this issue as regardless of anything else, it affects my current and future bottom line. I would venture a guess that we do see close to eye to eye on the problem, but perhaps not the solution...




There is a difference between willful ignorance and being the victim of a scam. Think about this analogy. A person looking to acquire a Rolex has many options. This person could go shopping at a flea market, where the Rolex would be the cheapest, Buy one from a reputable jeweler that would cost them top dollar or buying from a Pawn Shop with a good reputation, sort of in the middle. ebay is sort of like having the opportunity to choose from each of those options, all as one venue, with PNG dealers analogous to the reputable jewelers, someone like myself or other mid sized dealers being more like the Pawn Shop, and the new, just getting started sellers more like the flea market... There are pros and cons to each of these, and also a certain risk reward ratio too. You may be most likely to get the best deal, monetarily, by buying from a new or newish seller, but you are facing the most risk as well. (Risk being relative, of course, as there are numerous safeguards built into the ebay and Paypal platforms that generally would cover 99.99% of all situations which would require protection)




There is a massive difference in different markets, and as we are on a coin forum, I think it would be more advantageous to use the coin market on ebay as a case study where at least we could base more of our arguments on concrete facts, rather than speculation, on both of our parts.

That being said, the idea of 20% of all listings being counterfeit items seems like a gross overestimation. One other thing to keep in mind, given that most of this debate is predicated on the statements provided by the article you have linked from the Counterfeit Report, is that there may well be differing and conflicting definitions as what constitutes a counterfeit or fake item. Even here in on the coin forum, there are differing definitions of what are 'acceptable counterfeits' or 'bad counterfeits' and the grey areas in between. For instance, there are those on this site that feel that no counterfeits, contemporary, marked, described as such or modern should be allowed on ebay. There are others who feel exemptions should be granted for contemporary counterfeits. According to the government, modern counterfeits are legal, as long as they are properly marked. As you can see, this can get quite confusing, very quick. Now, multiply this by all of the countries ebay has a presence in, and then again by all of the different categories in which goods are offered in.




As I alluded to earlier, there are many levels of security for the buyer through ebay. First, you have ebay's own buyer protection, which would certainly cover most situations. On top of that, as a second layer of security, you have Paypal's buyer protection, which again, would provide a second layer. On top of that, should you pay for an item with your credit card through Paypal, you then have a third layer of additional protection. If I go to a show and pay cash, I have zero protection, or if I order through the mail from a seller or dealer, I only have the slightest bit of protection if I pay via check.




The report you have cited seems to hint they were making preemptive feedback strikes against sellers they felt were selling counterfeit items. I believe that ebay has a policy against leaving feedbacks for items in which the transactions were not fully executed, and that would be my guess for why feedbacks were changed or altered, if they were some type of 'activist' feedback. However, as the article did not elaborate on their methods, any further speculation on both of our parts would be just that, so I think we will have to disagree on this one...




Like it or not, we live in a globalized world. To wholy write off China, one of the largest markets in the world, would be more than shortsighted by PCGS or for any business trying to compete in a globalized world. The Las Vegas analogy is a good one, but it is a bit flawed, in that professional sports leagues are monopolies here in this country, while there are at least 4 legitimate, competing TPG services here in the U.S....




When I first started getting into the business side of things with coins seriously, an old time dealer who taught me most of the business end of things told me how in the Coin World, your name and reputation is everything. There are many 'dealers' I have never met in my life, but have been warned about dealing with by people I trust. The idea that merchants all have this idea of abusing a system is simply not correct. I am sure that not just myself, but the great majority of all dealers on ebay would much rather take a personal financial hit, than try and risk unloading a fake piece as the damage to ones reputation would be worse than losing a few bucks.




ebay has been around since 1995. While they certainly have made their share of errors throughout the years, they certainly seem to be standing the test of time. Of course, things may change at any time, just as things can change in the real world at any time. Right now, though, I think they are on the right track...