A Test - 1788 MO Fm 8 Reales

At best, sea salvage. At worst, cast copy.

Tell us the weight and show us a photo of the edge.

Correct on most counts. The coin is a fake - a Numismatic Forgery. It is made incorrectly as you indicated. The picture is adequate to diagnose the forgery. The raised rim is never seen on a genuine 8 reales because they were struck in a screw press. The design of the coin is close to perfect because it was copied from a genuine coin.

Two added points checking the coin on ebay. The seller shows the edge which is entirely incorrect. The edge design was made with punches that did not contain the correct rectangle circle rectangle design. If you note the elements are arranged rectangle circle a two segment punch not three segments. The alignment is horrible and what you see on the edge could never have been made with the correct three segment punch.

The seller indicates the coin weighs 26.7 grams.

That does not mean it is actually silver. The thickness was likely changed to provide the extra weight.

The color and surfaces are fake. This is done by forgers for effect. If the coin was as made it would literally fool no one.

The one thing no one seems to have done was to check to see this guy's other auctions. All of the Colonial 8Rs that he has posted for sale are numismatic forgeries as well.

The value of these coins are melt. That is about all they are really worth. I tend to buy examples for a few dollars above melt so that I can examine them up close.

John, look closely and you can see the typical types in that photo (e.g., the "F F" reverse seen on the infamous Krause-appearing "1776 FF" fake).

The problem, Bob, is that a piece like this is relatively easy to pick out, as the signs are there.

But what about those chopped types, etc. that were coming out from your (and numismat's) friends "WalmartSuperHappyCoin" and similar several years back? Those were a cut better than this old model.

coloneljohn You are correct to indicate the seller may have been defrauded himself. He should be advised so he can pull the auctions - IF HE IS LEGITIMATE.

Lets see if he does.

Its unusual he has them marked so high? If he was scamming mark them like $19.99 or just below spot silver for an ounce. Seems like he was scammed and he is in the process of $$$ recovering his loss since they are still up for sale?

Bob - what I do is look at his HISTORY. He seems to be a simple buillion dealer with Morgans and Eagles being sold in the lst six months. He has sold one bogus 1804 and he probably got stuck with this group for several hundered dollars. He is recouping his losses which may explain these high starting prices? He is a VICTIM making now other people VICTIMS of his unfortunate blunder - IMO. Its the American Way ... today. I venture in COIN TALK occasionally - Bob your book still has a long qway to go to infiltrate the marketplace. Too bad David Bowers never took our advice and put a Whitman sticker on the book. Whatever ...

JPL

I am more fearful that the more novice collectors get burned - the fewer will bother to learn.

John your point about re-couping losses may be the way some people operate, but it is still dishonest.

20021sc Thank you for your comments. I write most of what I do in an attempt to make people think.

The idea behind my method is that once you conceptualize how a coin was originally made (all the steps) you have a better shot at knowing when something is just not correct. The raised rim that cuts off part of the dentils is a classic case. The original dies were always cut larger in diameter than the planchets and the dentils were lozenge shaped tapering at both ends. Once that fact is clear, it becomes obvious that if an arc segment cuts off the dentils before the edge of the planchet something is WRONG. That something is that the wrong press and die assembly were used and you can conclude the coin is not genuine. It is also very likely that the image was copied from an already existing coin. Adding those pesky ends of dentils to a forged die is trickier than it seems.

I learned this overall method from a dealer in Boston and it allowed me to use much of what I had learned in school about deductive reasoning and engineering of metals.

One other thing you need to learn is that "cleaning" is not the worst thing that can happen to a coin like an early Mexican 8R. Cleaning of coins was not considered taboo until the Sheldon 70 point grading scale caught on. That (the Sheldon scale), in my opinion, is one of the worst things to happen in collecting in the past 40 years.

Especially when collecting Mexican colonial and early republican issues completetness of the strike, perfect centering and eye appeal are far better criteria than technical grade. MS is often meaningless when discussing some segments of the series. Rarity of 8Rs is simply not a function of state of preservation alone. The ridiculous prices for MS grades from the 1880s and 1890s is a good example. Many of the discolored, weakly struck and off center coins that spent their entire lives in Bank Vaults are not rare. But when these ugly sisters are placed in TPG holders they are treated as rare by technical grade number. That is a marketing ploy. Most collectors outside the US do not have these coins graded by TPGs. So when you get the "best ever graded by XYZ company" example what do you really own? A high price tag but little more. Hoards are still being recovered. Do not fall for that highest number plastic disease that many collectors catch.

High relief coining dies (like the majority of the Hooknecks and many other early dates) are essentially impossible to find 100% fully struck up. There are some die features that you never see. The scales or bands on the snake where it crosses the eagle's breast for instance. Because of large hoards of some of these dates that never circulated there are often many coins exhibiting no wear (technical MS coins) for a specific date and mint. These can be common compared to fully struck up examples. It may be just my personal preference but a fully detailed snake showing across the eagle's chest which looks great and is perfectly centered is far more important than some high point wear or field defects. You can also save some money at the same time because AU or EF coins are "cheaper" than full strikes - unless you run into old timers like myself who still place a premium on eye appeal.

Mexican coins are very much unlike the recently made US coins. These coins have a story to tell. I can spend hours looking at details like die setter's tick marks. I try to visualize how these tiny pin pricks and scrathed arcs were used to manually align die details by proficient craftsmen. These are not sterile clones like a Lincoln Cent. When dies wore or clashed - repairs are made often involving details that got recut or repunched. The varieties are fascinating.

Just looking at a high grade early cap and ray coin for clues as to what each punch added to the die is challanging. For example when did Zacatecas stop using individual punches for each of the eagle's wings? When did Guanajuato cut the eagle's lower jaw line by hand? When did the cactus plant become a single punch? When did the spines appear on the master punches? Can you tell how many hubs Durango used in 1832? Can you list the individual elements that were typically added by hand after hubbing for each mint? How many rays are there on the Cap? Did they vary in number or not? Did the order of the rays vary by die? Do all the rays trace to a single centering point in the cap? How many rays are overcut using two punches to create? Were outline rays with low centers ever used? When did the long tail of the San Louis Potosi coins become broken creating a bob-tailed eagle? How many breaks happened to that tail? How many dentils were on each punch that created the edge of the coin? Did you know that some counterfeits can be detected simply by that number?

The more you look at the Cap and Ray series the more detail you can derive. Of course if you like looking at clones searching for a stray die scratch or chipped letter collect the Standardized dies hubbed at Mexico City after 1886. BORING but high grades available on the foolish Sheldon scale.

There is something for everyone in this complex series and many discoveries are waiting for you to make. Even if you are re-discovering a fact that was published 60 years ago it is new to you, it may have been forgotten by 99% of collectors and it can be very personally rewarding.

Enough philosophy - remember to have fun. Forget the money enjoy.

20021sc You start by saying;




You have misunderstood what I am referring to.

You must start with the fact that the 8 reales working dies were made larger in diameter than the coin they were made to strike. This was because the screw press had no automatic centering device. A person had to place a planchet between the dies while other men spun heavy counterweights attached to the vertical axel.

So on a working die the entire dentil appears - beyond the dentil circle there is a flat surface which is at the same level as the field.



When a planchet is placed on the die eccentrically the dentils may partially disappear along part of the perimeter. This is NOT a sign of a forgery.



When a forger makes his dies, he often starts with a genuine coin. Using any of a number of different processes he can transfer the image of the coin to a die. The die will be exactly like the coin. This may/will include partial dentils.



So if the forger does not add the ends to the dentils on his fake die (which usually does not go well), the coins he strikes are exactly the size of the die. This requires perfect centering of the planchet. An off-centered planchet leads to the error I was referring to - Dentils that end BEFORE the edge of the coin.






The coin is shown inside a plastic and cardboard container that I am very familiar with. The offering enclosed coins that were purchased in China in bulk. A good percentage are counterfeit and most are polished. Typically they are a poor investment.

I am fairly certain that the coin enclosed is a forgery but I can not be 100% certain because of the plastic, it has a tendency to reflect the edge and can make the edge visible as if those details are at or near face level.

The Sheldon scale is flawed. There is no consensus when it come to the grades that exist. Two graders will grade a coin differently. If the scale worked that would not happen but it does. The MS coins have become foolish. I collect counterfeits so cleaning and other damage is no problem for me.

Hoards are still out there. I know many "pot hunters" and always keep my eyes and ears open for new discoveries.