Rare 1574 Paper Siege Coin Severely Damaged By PCGS During Certification

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casualcoincollector Pillar of the Community United States 574 Posts	Posted 04/04/2018 8:50 pm Hello, I know this may be long winded but please bear with me. I recently sent in a rather rare and important piece of numismatic world history but not a ridiculously valuable coin (my declared value was $1000.00) into PCGS for certification and got it back last Saturday and it appears that it was severely damaged by PCGS during the encapsulation process. Please see the various photos below. Some of you may be wondering what a paper siege coin is (here is the short version, I am planning on posting a thread in the world coin section when I have some more time that will go into more depth on the subject). In 1574 the city of Leiden (also spelled Leyden) in the Netherlands was under siege by the Spanish. During the siege all metals run out (they were all used to make weapons and munitions). As a result of this emergency paper coins were stuck using the same coin dies that were used to mint the previous issue of silver coins during the siege. The paper coins were intended to be traded in for silver coins at the end of the siege. The coin in question here is a paper 5 Stuivers from that siege. These were literally struck out of multiple pages of church missals/hymnals. So, the coin is actually made out of religious texts/books since these were the only book available at the time. Ever since I had originally heard about these paper coins I was interested in procuring one for a circulating coinage materials set that I have been working on putting together for many years now (as seen here http://goccf.com/t/284136 ). So, after many years of off and on searching for a decent example of a 1574 paper siege coin that I could actually purchase. I was finally able to procure one from a small auction house on the east coast a couple of months ago. Ironically, I opted to send in the coin to PCGS mostly to protect it since I live in an often foggy environment and these paper coins are extremely susceptible to moisture. Please see the photos below: Below are the photos of the coin that I sent to PCGS before I sent it to PCGS: Below are the TrueView Photos that were posted on the PCGS website. (I still have not received an email with a link to the photos. I had to track them down myself on the PCGS website): Below is the text from the email that I sent to PCGS customer service on the first of April: "Hello, I recently received submission number xxxxxx, order number xxxxxxxx in the mail and it seems obvious to me that the coin was severely damaged during the encapsulation process while in the care of PCGS. Please see the attached photos (the reverse of the coin is now split open a long the rim edge of one side and there is an obvious and significant wrinkle/buckling in the surface of the reverse side down the entire length of the coin). Photos one and two show the coin prior to it being sent to PCGS and photos three through eighteen show the coin that I received back in the mail after it had been encapsulated by PCGS and the previously mentioned damage. This was rather hard coin for me to get ahold of and I had been looking for an example of this coin for many years and to say that I am disappointed with the outcome of PCGS's handling of this coin is an understatement. I am not interested or willing to send the coin back/surrender the coin to PCGS since it would most likely take many more years for me to track down and win/purchase another comparable example of this coin. But I do feel that the value of the coin has been massively decreased due to the damage that the coin had sustained while in the care of PCGS and with that being said I feel that I am due monetary compensation for the damage that was inflicted to this coin while in the care of PCGS. There is also the issue that I have not yet received the TrueView photos associated with this order like I have with all other submissions before I have received the coins back in the mail. Please see the attached photos and please let me know your thoughts on the matter. Regards, -My Name" And lastly below are the photos that I took of the coin that I got back "certified" from PCGS showing the damage: As of tonight, I still have not gotten any non automated response from PCGS customer service for the email that I sent on the first of April to the info@PCGS.com email address but I did just forward the same email today to the customerservice@(150827) Not Allowed - Auto Removed email address today (the email address for customer service for collectors universe, the parent company of PCGS) and hopefully that will help get the ball rolling on this problem. (I am holding off calling them until next week since I would really prefer their response be in writing "email" so that there is no ambiguity in their reply and there is a record of their reply, it's just easier that way). Anyway, please let me know what you think or if you have any thoughts on the matter and please let me know if you have any questions for me. Thanks for looking. Also, I'm starting to get the feeling that since I'm such a small fish in a very large pond in that I have only ever had six coins certified by PCGS and none of tremendous value that I'm not really being paid much attention to on this matter or at the very least I'm on the back burner. So, if you don't mind, if you could please share this story and spread it around, just maybe it will get more attention and I will be able to close this unfortunate matter a little quicker. I would really appreciate it. Thanks. Edited by casualcoincollector 04/04/2018 8:54 pm Report this Post to the Staff

Spence Moderator United States 34423 Posts	Posted 04/04/2018 9:10 pm Quote: please let me know what you think That is really not ok. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
aristarchus123 Pillar of the Community United States 1695 Posts	Posted 04/04/2018 9:26 pm I wonder if the coin separated during the sonic sealing of the plastic or during humidity changes during shipment to you. Report this Post to the Staff
thisistheshow Pillar of the Community United States 987 Posts	Posted 04/04/2018 9:30 pm I am sorry that this happened to you. Do you have any thoughts about what could have caused the damage? Could the damage have occurred during shipping to PCGS, like from rain water, etc? Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 04/04/2018 9:31 pm They don't respond to email from generic addresses basically ever. You need to call customer service and they'll tell you what to do then it'll get taken care of. Report this Post to the Staff
casualcoincollector Pillar of the Community United States 574 Posts	Posted 04/05/2018 03:38 am @aristarchus123, Quote: I wonder if the coin separated during the sonic sealing of the plastic or during humidity changes during shipment to you. I highly doubt this was caused by a humidity changes simply due to the fact that the coin is over 400 years old and most likely been through many humidity changes since it was minted. @thisistheshow, Quote: Do you have any thoughts about what could have caused the damage? Looking at it in hand it seems to me that part of the coin caught the upper lip of the interior ring of the slab and the individual that was placing the coin in the ring then forced it into place causing the damage. Quote: Could the damage have occurred during shipping to PCGS, like from rain water, etc? I don't think so since the TrueView photos that PCGS took at their facility doesn't show the damage. Edited by casualcoincollector 04/05/2018 03:42 am Report this Post to the Staff
jbuck Moderator United States 188770 Posts	Posted 04/05/2018 09:31 am This is terrible news. Quote: Looking at it in hand it seems to me that part of the coin caught the upper lip of the interior ring of the slab and the individual that was placing the coin in the ring then forced it into place causing the damage. I agree, the damage was done during encapsulation. Coin Collector Since 1978 Avatar Old Avatar 7070 Eisenhower Australia Canada World CCF Members on eBay CCF eBay Search Engine Report this Post to the Staff
nautilator Valued Member United States 330 Posts	Posted 04/06/2018 12:06 pm That's awful. They better refund you for that. Likely is that the paper was too soft to stand being snapped into a plastic holder, no? When I inquired with PMG about holdering my rubber dollar, they politely declined on account of thinking it might get damaged while being sealed. I guess PCGS didn't think that way here. Report this Post to the Staff
nfine Pillar of the Community United States 3472 Posts	Posted 04/06/2018 12:16 pm How did this ever pass the QC checks? Report this Post to the Staff
SilverDollar2017 Pillar of the Community United States 8715 Posts	Posted 04/06/2018 12:58 pm Call customer service immediately and don't hang up until you get a refund. That damage is horrible. Most likely the damage was done while the coin was encapsulated. Report this Post to the Staff
Numisma Pillar of the Community United States 4963 Posts	Posted 04/06/2018 1:07 pm Ouch. Even ignoring the monetary loss, it's a shame that happened. They'd better cover the cost. Edit: Please keep us up to date on what they say. Edited by Numisma 04/06/2018 3:00 pm Report this Post to the Staff
jbuck Moderator United States 188770 Posts	Posted 04/06/2018 6:09 pm Quote: Please keep us up to date on what they say. Yes, please. It pains me to see this. Coin Collector Since 1978 Avatar Old Avatar 7070 Eisenhower Australia Canada World CCF Members on eBay CCF eBay Search Engine Report this Post to the Staff
Earle42 Bedrock of the Community United States 10038 Posts	Posted 04/06/2018 6:27 pm Unbelievable treatment of such an amazing piece of history. How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 Report this Post to the Staff
casualcoincollector Pillar of the Community United States 574 Posts	Posted 04/07/2018 02:57 am Thanks for your comments everyone, So, update, I have not yet received any response to either of my emails to PCGS or Collectors Universe. I plan on giving them a call on either Monday or Tuesday of next week to discuss this issue (one of the main reasons that I was holding off calling PCGS is that I am still rather angry about this issue and I would prefer to be calmer about this when I call them. It will most likely make things run smoother on the phone with them). @nautilator, Quote: Likely is that the paper was too soft to stand being snapped into a plastic holder, no? I don't think so since the coin was actually pretty stiff and keep in mind that the coin is not just made out of paper but it is made out of compressed paper so it is stronger than it looks and has the consistency of thick cardboard. @ Numisma, Quote: Even ignoring the monetary loss, it's a shame that happened. They'd better cover the cost. Agreed, it really is a shame and I would be lying if I said I wasn't incredibly angry about it but getting angry over the fact that it happened is not going to get me anywhere. The only thing that I can do now is fight for monetary compensation for the damage. To be perfectly honest though, I'm not particularly confident that this issue is going to go very well once I call PCGS since even though I am confident that I am in the right in this issue and that I am owed monetary compensation for the damage to the coin. There's a good chance that there will be an impasse point of the conversation in that PCGS is most likely going to want me to send them back the coin and I'm just not willing to do that since I don't really trust that I will ever get the coin back from them (I think that they may just compensate me for the market value of the coin and keep it) and if they tell me that they will get it back to me. They can't guarentee me that they won't damage it any more than it already is. Whereas, on the other hand, I want compensation for the damage done to the coin without surrendering the coin to PCGS. I bought this coin and got it certified for my personal collection and not for resale. Edited by casualcoincollector 04/07/2018 03:46 am Report this Post to the Staff
spru Bedrock of the Community United States 12477 Posts	Posted 04/07/2018 03:26 am While I am disheartened by this scenario, you are in a pretty good place to claim what you deserve. You have pre-submission pics, you have their TrueView pics (clearly the same coin pre-damage) and pics of it damaged within their slab (took place in their care) and showing clear indications that it is the exact same coin. PCGS has no ground to stand on in this case and should refund all fees associated with the submission and also the FMV of the coin as submitted. They're a big enough company that it shouldn't be too difficult to make that happen. In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020 In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020 In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024 Edited by spru 04/07/2018 03:30 am Report this Post to the Staff
Conder101 Bedrock of the Community United States 17884 Posts	Posted 04/07/2018 10:37 am You will have to call them. PCGS rarely answers emails. Although the coin may be compressed paper it is compressed layers of paper you try snapping that into the prongs of the slab it's going to drag on the edge and can split the thing open like you see in the pictures. Frankly this is not the type of item I would even consider putting in a slab because of the compression from the edge towards the center created by the prongs. A metal coin can stand up to that pressure but even a compressed paper coin would probably eventually start buckling. Report this Post to the Staff
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