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Die Pair Varieties For 2012 Canadian Dimes

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 Posted 01/10/2021  1:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I know that some of you guys on here may or may not find these die pairs all that interesting, however for Canadian modern dimes all varieties have been hardly documented or even recognized for that matter. So I took it upon myself for the sake of the hobby to start piecing these varieties together into listings so that it gives collectors and roll hunters other things to look for.

I don't know about you guys, but for the Canadian Modern dimes, varieties don't seem to pop up all too often. These varieties shown below are included in my book (maybe not word for word) along with the images and information within this post are subject to Copywrite and are my intellectual property and must not be shared, copied, edited, or reproduced for any publications without my permission.

However, for the sake of these listings, you CAN use them within the Coin Community Forum only, as well as for personal use for comparisons. Long story short, I don't want any of my photos being shared anywhere for any reason other than on this forum unless you get written consent from myself.

Let's begin...


Die Pair Varieties for 2012 Dimes.

Variety #1
Listing Number: 12-QEII-10-NOBV
(Normal Obverse for 2012) - Common

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes

During the minting process in 2011, the standard obverse die design for the legend "ELIZABETH II" and "D.G. REGINA" showed a flat bottom for each letter.

Later on in 2011 when the RCM started to mint the 2012 dimes for the upcoming year, they switched the font style to show the legend "ELIZABETH II" and "D.G. REGINA" with arched bottoms (think of an upside-down heart).

Although subtle and sometimes hard to spot without a 2011 dime side by side or photos to compare it with, you can see the differences easily with the use of a loupe or other forms of magnification on hand (its a dime, most details, in general, are hard to see on a coin this size).

Out of $1,250.00 worth of dimes, I stopped counting after I filled 4 rolls.



Variety #2
Listing Number: 12-QEII-10-OBV2-BH
(2011 broken "H" obverse paired with 2012 Reverse) - Not as Common

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes

These two images below can be used to do an overlay to show that they both are the result of the exact same die damage that was the result of a broken master punch or working punch before being transferred to the working dies during the hubbing process.

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes
Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes

This die pair can be found on both 2011 and 2012 dimes like shown above, as this one has a very noticeable die marker that was the result of a broken post on either the master punch or working punch during the production of the 2011 obverse dies that were later used to strike 2012 dimes.

The broken post that I refer to is the post between the "H" in "ELIZABETH" and does not need any type of high magnification to find. This variety has been around for a while as most have over-looked it as damage, when in fact it is not.

When the RCM was striking dimes for 2012 they used some of the obverse dies leftover from 2011 to finish the production. Some of those dies showing the broken "H" and some not showing any die markers at all (12-QEII-10-OBV2 for instance) but still show the standard obverse font design for 2011 which is flat bottoms on each letter found on the obverse, instead of the arched foot design that was intended for 2012 (upside-down heart shape).

Out of $1,250.00 worth of dimes, I managed to find one full roll.



Variety #3
Listing Number: 12-QEII-10-OBV2
(2011 obverse paired with 2012 reverse) - Not Common

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes

This die pair is not as easy to find as the previous two. Since the RCM used leftover dies from 2011 to mint the 2012 dimes as mentioned previously, the only way to differentiate which obverse die that was used, is to compare the Legends on the obverse of a 2011 and a 2012 dime.

The two main designs used for the obverse legends are flat bottom for 2011 dimes, and arched bottom letters for 2012 dimes. Finding a 2012 dime with no broken "H" and only showing the flat bottom design had proven to be fairly difficult.

Out of $1,250.00 worth of dimes, I managed to find 10 examples.

Variety #4
Listing Number: 12-QEII-10-OBV2-DDR
(2011 broken "H" obverse die paired with 2012 doubled die reverse) - Not Common

This die pair somewhat surprised me, It was not only paired with a 2011 Obverse die with a broken "H", but it was also paired with a doubled die reverse. Reason being as to why I say "somewhat" surprised me is that on almost all denominations for 2012 there are doubled dies being found so I expected to find one sooner or later for the 10 cent dimes.

On the reverse, a small spread of doubling can be found on the left of the devices in "CANADA" and at the bottom of the date, as well as "10 CENTS" going in a Southwest direction. Although the spread of doubling is small, it is easily recognizable and still a genuine doubled die.

Out of $1,250.00 worth of dimes, I only managed to find one example.

Please Note: No photos are available for listing number: 12-QEII-10-OBV2-DDR as I have not taken any yet but will, later on this evening and I will update this post.

Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
Edited by JohnWayne007
01/10/2021 1:36 pm
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chafemasterj's Avatar
United States
6514 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2021  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. You certainly have taken on quite an undertaking. Looks very thought out and professional.
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2021  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you chafemasterj,
They may not be a very exciting find to some, but I know first hand how frustrating it can be when your looking through coins with hardly any listings to follow. These 4 listings are minor compared to what I have been working on and I felt the members here might enjoy something new to look for during these times with everything that is going on in the world.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
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Canada
9864 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2021  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMO it's not a change in font it's due to progressive hub deterioration.
I believe you can see the beginnings on some 2011 coins.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2021  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
IMO it's not a change in font it's due to progressive hub deterioration.
I believe you can see the beginnings on some 2011 coins.


DBM, although I respect your opinion the font change I'm refering to is not on any dimes prior to 2011 and only shows after 2011 to present. I dont mind being wrong by all means, but I wouldent be so confident if I did not do my research beforehand. I have found zero 2011 dimes with the arches that are found on the 2012 dimes, if that were true than I should have been able to find atleast one 2011 dime with the arches on the bottom of the devices.

I have been studying font changes on all denominations and there are plenty of different variations of fonts used. As for why the changes, I'm not sure. Could be due to striking pressure in problematic areas that are subject to deterioration and the removal of those areas to prevent it in future strikes.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
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mice45's Avatar
Canada
106 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2021  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mice45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have checked my small stash of 10 cents from 2011 to 2014 (about 10 coins per year) and what I see is somewhat different statistics.
I found one 2011 with broken 'H' and one 2012 with progressively broken 'H'. A clear case of a die re-use here.
The rest of my 2012 coins are regular "flat footed". I did not find any 2012 with "arched foot". So, in my case, JW007's 12-QEII-10-OBV2 is a common one.
Out of 2013 coins I found one with "arched feet", the rest are common "flat foot".
From 2014 to 2020 all my coins have new bold font without any curves.
So, based on my small sample, one may guess that the "arched" font was some kind of one-time experiment in 2012 and the die(s) were re-used in 2013.
Also, on one of 2012 coins there is "arched foot" but on one "I" only.
That makes me guess that the font change was subject to quick Die Deterioration and it is not easy to recognize with late-stage dies.

What confuses me is the latest post by @JW007.
Quote: "the font change I'm refering to is not on any dimes prior to 2011 and only shows after 2011 to present".
I see a different font from 2014 to 2020. Not the one from 2011-2013 with arched feet or without.


Edited by mice45
01/10/2021 5:26 pm
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 Posted 01/10/2021  6:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What confuses me is the latest post by @JW007.
Quote: "the font change I'm referring to is not on any dimes prior to 2011 and only shows after 2011 to present".
I see a different font from 2014 to 2020. Not the one from 2011-2013 with arched feet or without.


Mice45, you are correct, I did not mean to add the "to present" at the end of that. I know that the fonts went to a bolder style after 2013.

I would also ignore the "Common/Not Common" comment portion under my listing numbers. I wrote out this post in my notes on my phone and pasted them into a draft on the CCF, I then hopped on my laptop to add the images and finish posting but I did not proofread what I had said. That is why in the beginning I mentioned that it may not be word for word.

I will edit the post to clear up any confusion and add the listing for the DDR, there is also a DDO I will add as well.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 01/10/2021  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tend to agree with DBM on this .. it makes sense from an engineering and metallurgic standpoint. The hub or master punch, whatever you want to call it that makes/punches the dies, would have had a prong or point-like projection that would have made the "dish" at the bottom of the serifs. As it punched more and made more dies, that projection wore down or chipped off gradually, so that the bottoms of the serifs lost their "curve". You can call it a font change if you want, but I think that the protrusion on the hub/punch just wore away, making the serif bottoms almost flat. Now, remember that I'm neither an error expert (far from it) or a 10 cent person. I'm just opining on what I see.
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 Posted 01/10/2021  9:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will clean up any confusion a bit by doing a full listing for every variety. In total there are 5 varieties for 2012 as listed below in the correct order.

Variety #1
Listing Number:
12-QEII-10-NOBV

Variety #2
Listing Number:
12-QEII-10-OBV2

Variety #3
Listing Number:
12-QEII-10-OBV2-BH

Variety #4
Listing Number:
12-QEII-10-OBV2-DDR

Variety #5
Listing Number:
12-QEII-10-OBV2-DDO


Here are the two different fonts used in 2012 from what I have found. The photo below has listing number 12-QEII-10-NOBV on the left and listing number 12-QEII-10-OBV2 on the right.

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes


Now here is where it gets a little interesting (to me anyway) as you can see the 2011 Broken "H" and the 2012 Broken "H" are identical, right down to the little die scratch on the top left of the "T" and top right of the "H" and is found on all broken "H" examples for both 2011 and 2012 that I have found.

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes


Now for the DDR & DDO listings. Again, they were expected to be found at one point sooner or later. So I think that finding one in the wild would be easy, not exactly common but not very impressive doubling like I'm usually finding. I'm sure someone will say the 2012 DDR looks like MD, however, it is not, the lighting is just hard to get right for photos with this lens.

Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes
Die-Pair-Varieties-For-2012-Canadian-Dimes

For my area at least, the hardest ones for me to find through all the dimes I have searched are variety 3, 4, and 5 from the list above.

I know to some these varieties might not seem that exciting but honestly, these differences are distinctive and they are there and very much real. My honest guess is the mint probably used the dies from 2011 with the different style obverse for 2012 on purpose because the details were small enough that (to them) might not have mattered, and obviously, it would be a waste of perfectly usable obverse dies leftover from a previous year if they hadn't.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2021  9:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You can call it a font change if you want, but I think that the protrusion on the hub/punch just wore away, making the serif bottoms almost flat. Now, remember that I'm neither an error expert (far from it) or a 10 cent person. I'm just opining on what I see.


okiecoiner,

I respect all opinions from this site without any problems.

An overlay can easily remedy that concern if you overlay 12-QEII-10-NOBV and 12-QEII-10-OBV2.

QEII-10-NOBV has rounded serifs and if wear were present than the letters would be drastically smaller in order to make those deep arches "flat".

12-QEII-10-OBV2 has sharp squared off serifs, as far as I was aware, deterioration or wear wouldn't make a device sharp and defined.

Lets say the working punch(raised) was wearing down, those devices left in the working die that strikes the coins would be thinner, not defined.

Lets say the master die (incuse) was wearing down, those devices would be larger.

Long story short, the devices on both 12-QEII-10-NOBV and 12-QEII-10-OBV2 are the same size, and deterioration or wear could not define one or the other to look that sharp.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
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