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1909 S VDB Lincoln Wheat Cent - Verify

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tropicalbats's Avatar
United States
6116 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2021  11:24 pm Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I bought this as a details coin (cleaned and damaged) but honestly have little experience with mm placement 2. Anyone know a definitive die marker to nail it down for sure as genuine? The reason is that it appears to be on a slightly light planchet (2.95g) and has weak strike on the WE and VDB suggesting a tapered planchet.

Thanks for any help.

1909 S VDB Lincoln Wheat cent - possible tapered planchet


1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
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QuarterHoarder72's Avatar
United States
2156 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2021  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add QuarterHoarder72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not familiar with the mint mark locations on this coin, wish I could help you but I simply don't have the experience. I wish you the best of luck!
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Scuba1's Avatar
United States
356 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2021  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scuba1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey TB, the weight of the coin, or lack thereof, could possibly be from the amount of circulation wear that is visible in your exceptional pics. Looks like a lot of metal has been removed from that cent especially on the obverse. As far as the mm, I am not quite sure.
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Zurie's Avatar
United States
5684 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  01:22 am  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The mintmark shape and location look correct for MM position 2, although I can't make out the die chip in the upper loop of the S. Also, can you see a die gouge along the rim above the RU in TRUST? Looks genuine, but it would be nice to have one of those die markers since the VDB is so weak.
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GrapeCollects's Avatar
United States
8939 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  01:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As Zurie noted the position matches for Die #2, however I do have concerns. There appear to be what could be tooling marks around the mint mark area. In addition, I have yet to come across a poorly struck up S-VDB, which given the weakness of 'WE' and 'VDB' is a concerning factor as the weakness perfectly removes the crossbar of the 'B' of 'VDB' which is a diagnostic point. My honest opinion is that I wouldn't tough this with a 10m pole.
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Yokozuna's Avatar
United States
4618 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's die 2. I have an image somewhere that shows all 4 mint mark locations. If I can find it I'll post it, if not, I'll do a new Photoshop tomorrow and post that.

ANA ID: 3203813 - CONECA ID: N-5637 Clean a coin that may be worth collecting? Please DON'T! When in doubt, leave it dirty!!
1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify


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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  05:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Take four very important steps:

1. post here in the CCF and read the answers
2. close examination with a 10X loupe looking specifically for coin alteration,
3. take it to a coin dealer for another opinion,
4. after all of this, you may decide that shipping and grading fees are justifiable, to submit to a TPG for authentication and slabbing.

You have already taken the first.

Edited by sel_69l
03/13/2021 07:51 am
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  09:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like Die pair #2 to me as well.
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Zurie's Avatar
United States
5684 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  09:21 am  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tropicalbats, I like your idea of a slightly tapered planchet accounting for the weak WE, VDB, and low weight. But the rim in that area looks unusually strong, and wouldn't the bottom of the VDB be weaker than the top if that were the case?

I think your best bet to verify authenticity is to find the small die gouge above RU, although I think that may only be present in later die states of die position #2.
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KenKat's Avatar
United States
4085 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  09:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That low weight would be very concerning to me. I've never seen a copper cent weigh that low with that much detail still intact.
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tropicalbats's Avatar
United States
6116 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the great comments. I will need to try and look up what the die gouge above the RU looks like, as might be something light there but need a shape to match.

I'm not overly concerned about the weight, as it shows all the signs of a slightly tapered planchet, but just worried that it would be a hard sell down the road without something on there other than mm placement to guarantee it is legit. The coin was in a slip when I bought it, and I could see the cleaning and damage, but without a solid marker and the unique weakness I honestly think it's be troublesome to sell it as too many people would find too many things odd about it.
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  2:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
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 Posted 03/13/2021  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CentSation to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die #2 should have a very small tangent/tail at the base of the second 9 of the date that I am not seeing in your date close-up.

1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
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Zurie's Avatar
United States
5684 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  3:15 pm  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@coop, your photo of die 3 is actually die 2, and the photo of die 2 is actually another die 4.
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Zurie's Avatar
United States
5684 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tropicalbats, here's a picture of the small die gouge or scratch over the letters RU in TRUST. It's cropped from a Heritage photo, so not the greatest image, but at least it gives you the location.

1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent---Verify
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Scuba1's Avatar
United States
356 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scuba1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Take four very important steps:

Uh..... sel_691.... Evidently you may not have seen who initiated this post. With over 3,000 posts, and a boat load of excellent coins, I'm sure tropicalbats knows what he is doing. I really don't think he is a "newbie"...... just my opinion.
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