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1916 Buffalo Nickel 16/16 DDO?

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mycrob's Avatar
United States
2602 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  11:29 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mycrob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I found this interesting coin among my dateless philly group. It has at least some of the hallmark features of the 16/16 DDO. However, the third small feather does not show doubling on my coin, compared to the pics I've seen on the 16/16. It could have worn away, since this is a dateless coin. Also, the doubling of the ribbons on my coin is barely detectable, likely due to wear.

Like the 16/16, this coin has doubling in the two main feathers, doubling on the chin, neck and eye

1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO? 1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO? 1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO?
1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO? 1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO?

What do you think? If it's not a 16/16, do you know what the other possibilities are? Should I restore the date on this?

I'm sorry about the pics. I was taking them through a microscope and the lighting is very difficult to get right.
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rockdude's Avatar
United States
1807 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rockdude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a pic of the 1916 DDO, see how your coin differs. I think yours has machine(OK I changed it)doubling or Die Deterioration.
The name " Buffalo nickel" is actually a misnomer, as the animal appearing on the reverse is in fact a bison and not a buffalo. The true name of this very popular coin is the Five Cent Indian Head, however, the name " Buffalo nickel" seems to have been set as its most widely used and accepted name.

1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO?
Edited by rockdude
02/01/2009 11:59 am
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John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  2:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The photos came out pretty dark on my monitor,can you post better photos so we can see the coin better?
John1
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rockdude's Avatar
United States
1807 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rockdude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I lightened one of them up to help I.D.

1916-Buffalo-Nickel-16/16-DDO?
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  3:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think your looking too close. If there is real doubling there it will jump out at you instead of making you look harder to find any. Images too close make a grain of sand into a mountain.
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mycrob's Avatar
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2602 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mycrob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The is clear separation on the two feathers, so I don't see how this is Mechanical Doubling. It might be that the stuff on the neck, eye and forehead are Mechanical Doubling. This is the only one with doubled feathers I have seen in about 5000 dateless coins, so it isn't common. I've seen several Die Deterioration examples (lacking third feather, for example) and I do not think this is Die Deterioration.

I am questioning whether it is a 16/16, however, because there is no doubling on both sides of the long feather, just on one side. I'm raising the point that this might be another DDO- another date, but I don't have a cherrypicker's guide to find out which one it might be. I was wondering if anyone out there might be able to ID it.

I also have the option of restoring the date, but the coin is really worn and may not restore successfully.
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xshift's Avatar
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2669 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have my book in front of me, but wasn't there an overdate DDO.. 1918? (guessing) and I seem to recall a 1927. I know there were more than just the 1916. Maybe someone with the book handy can give us the PUPs
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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3507 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2009  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is mostly Die Deterioration Doubling with a touch of Machine Doubling.

Thanks,
Bill
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weerdsteev's Avatar
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1291 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2009  07:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Considering the wear, I would give it a 50/50 chance. Whatever you do, don't spend it! Send it off for authentication or restore it and let us know the results!
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xshift's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2009  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just for clarity - doesn't look like the 1927 is a DDO, it's an RPM. There's a 1929 DDO though: look at date, neck and hair braid.

The 1918/7-D Overdate & DDO has the date itself as the PUP, with a small die crack "immediately above the tie on the braid, leading slightly downward to the Indian's jaw". I forgot you had said it was Philly though, so it's not this one

1930 DDO has 6 different DDO varieties as of this Cherrypicker's (this is not the new one, there could be more by now). They are not individually listed, but have eyelid and nostril as the PUPs, also check upper lip, and eyebrow on one.

So.. let us know if you do decide to restore the date
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weerdsteev's Avatar
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 Posted 02/01/2009  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mycrob - Have you decided what to do with (about) it yet?
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 02/01/2009  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's " Machine Doubling" - not " Mechanical Doubling". And that's what I think this coin has. It's not the famous and valuable 1916 doubled die...but one way to find out would be to restore the date. Another way, which I cannot tell by the photos alone, is to check the reverse for a mintmark. If the coin has one, then it's definitely not the 1916 doubled die.
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weerdsteev's Avatar
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 Posted 02/01/2009  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mycrob - I have FAITH in you that there will be no mint mark on the reverse. (Right...?)
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mycrob's Avatar
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 Posted 02/02/2009  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mycrob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is no mint mark on the reverse of this coin- it is a dateless Philly. And I do think this is NOT the 16/16 because other features are not correct on the OBV. The doubling of the feathers is similar to the 16/16, but the ribbon is not doubled on my coin, like the 16/16- that is a key difference. My coin also has doubling in the hair pony tail, but photo didn't come out on that.

So why is the doubling of the feathers on my coin, which is very similar to the 16/16, Machine Doubling? I don't get it. There is clear separation of the feathers on both coins. You can see it by eye, without magnification. If you put the 16/16 next to my coin, the feathers on both coins look very similar, I think.

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Jazzcoins's Avatar
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 Posted 02/02/2009  10:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jazzcoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Edited by Jazzcoins
02/02/2009 10:39 am
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 02/02/2009  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First of all, nickel dies wear strangely - mostly because the planchets they are striking are very hard. Machine Doubling and Die Deterioration Doubling can take on an effect that looks a lot like hub doubling (doubled dies).

Second, the images of your coin show a pretty hefty amount of Die Deterioration - noted by the strong striations that come off the devices in many areas, so Die Deterioration Doubling is at least some part of what's going on with your coin.

Third, the 'doubling' you see on your coin is not actually like the doubling on the 1916 doubled die. Most notably because the doubling on your coin 'takes away' from the normal size and shape of the devices in question. In other words, the normal devices on your coin were flattened by a second strike, most likely from a bounce of the die after the first strike - this is known as Machine Doubling, is common, and affects a heck of a lot of coins. MANY novice collectors see this and think doubled die...but they are caused by two completely different things, and only doubled dies have collectible value.
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