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What Did ANACS Do To Deserve Its Bad Rap?

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Valued Member

Canada
191 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  05:31 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add recollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
not design its coin holders as stylishly as PCGS and ngc? when ANACS coins get 50-80% lower bids in auctions, there is either a serious problem with their grading or this hobby has taken another step towards the dumpster.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I prefer to buy even lower, and trust my own judgement in hand held examination for grade and authenticity.
Can't do that with slabs, but you have to trust those who grade the coins, based on their specialist experience.
In any case NGC won't authenticate ancient coins, they only grade them, and stand by that factor alone.
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There is always the temptation by TPG's to give favorable grades, in order to attract return business, especially for the more important clients with larger orders.
Probably helps to explain, at least in part, why ANACS gradings attract lower prices.


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panzaldi's Avatar
United States
18663 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  08:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
all TPG grading is suspect to a degree. remember that folks just like us are grading them so there is always room for mistakes. how many time have we seen PCGS and NGC coins that the coin did not match the slab. regardless of which one is grading the coin you still need to assess it yourself. I dont slab for that reason, I trust my grading ability.

i would think that PCGS and NGC have a better reputation in applying more accurate grades overall. maybe its because they have more experienced graders or the process they use to grade a coin so people are willing to pay more for them.

folks are lazy and rely on the slab grade too much instead of taking the time to learn various series nuances and how to grade them. CCF members are every bit as good as the big houses in assessing a coin.
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  08:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ANACS has been notably inconsistent over its long history.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  09:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I strongly agree with the point that panzaldi made that
too many collectors rely on the slab grade too much, without taking the time necessary to learn accurate grading for themselves.

If you can accurately grade for yourself, you can be more confident about buying 'raw' coins at lower prices.
And for some, getting them slabbed and selling for a profit, to take advantage of those who haven't taken the time to learn.
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Pacificoin's Avatar
Canada
5394 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  10:15 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure what the OP is on about when they say
"when ANACS coins get 50-80% lower bids in auction "
Pretty broad brush without explanation .
Our current experience with ANACS certainly is
not reflective of that statement at all !
We sell a lot of ANACS graded coins , ( especially Morgan dollars ,
VAMS and US type ) and the coins bring roughly the same as if the
Coins were in either NGC or PCGS holders .
If anything , personal observation tells me that ANACS has been
more conservative in their approach to grading than either of the other
two over the last 18 to 24 months.
Would love to see some elaboration from the OP!
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CarrsCoins's Avatar
United States
756 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
some of my thoughts on why anacs is the third wheel of the bunch:

people dont like the way the slabs look. specifically they dont like the yellow insert. I like the shape. its nice to be able to read the slab while its in the slab box.

they historically havent had the same financial guarantee that ngc and PCGS offer. not sure if thats still the case. basically they are just saying stuff. PCGS and ngc are offering a buy back guarantee if the coin is ever determined to be fake.

people like the registry stuff. you cant put anacs slabs into the PCGS/NGC registry. you arent just buying a holder. you also get the software.

anacs cost quite a bit less. most dealers charge more for PCGS because PCGS charges them more. they are passing that cost on to the customer. iterated millions of times that creates a difference in price.

i dont care for slabs, but before they were the industry standard there were a lot more predatory dealers. slabs force a professional standard onto the hobby. the hobby is a safer place for novice and intermediate collectors/dealers with those types of services available.

i also agree that slabs have become a crutch for a lot of people. people treat the word of the graders as fact rather than the opinion of 3 well trained coin nerds. they are just people. many of the graders werent even born when I got into coins.

i look at every coin in PCI and SEGS slabs that I see. there are a lot of good coins in those holders and there are a lot of people who refuse to shop anything other than their preferred brand of plastic holder. they narrow their interaction with the hobby and that is to my benefit.

anacs is as good as the others when it comes to errors and varieties in my experience. nobody on the planet can reliably tell the difference between ms67 and ms 68.
Edited by CarrsCoins
11/01/2022 10:29 am
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psuman08's Avatar
United States
1773 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add psuman08 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think Coinfrog nailed this one. ANACS has had periods where they were tough or maybe better stated as accurate with their grading. They also have periods where they were quite lenient. If you look at the coin, you can find some very nice coins in ANACs holders.
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hfjacinto's Avatar
United States
7276 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What coinfrog said. Although last few years I feel ANACS has been pretty good if not stricter than PCGS or NGC.

I know we say this all the time, buy the coin not that slab. Look at each coin as a whole. If the coin is nicer in an ANACS slab buy that one. For the majority unless you are competing in the registry set, the slabbed shouldn't matter.
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Slider23's Avatar
United States
4469 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are some excellent points above why ANACS is a second tear TPG.

The ANACS small white soap holder has some excellent coins and most are correctly graded.
The ANACS blue label came after the small white label and grading on the blue label is inconsistent. The blue label may have moved collectors off of ANACS and onto PCGS and NGC.
Grading on the ANACS yellow label improved and is on par with NGC and PCGS, but does not get the same value recognition from collectors as NGC and PCGS.
ANACS does an excellent job on Morgan VAM's.
CAC does not sticker the ANACS holders, and this does have an impact on ANACS high value coins.

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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2022  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The not as good:

The blue label holder fiasco burned a lot of collectors on ANACS. ANACS blue label holders were wildly inconsistent and damaged the company's reputation with collectors and investors.

When ANACS lost their status as the ANA's preferred grader, that had a negative effect on their reputation as well, because it created a perception that they were "not as good" as NGC or PCGS, whether that was true or not.

To the best of my knowledge, ANACS does not operate or maintain an online database of their coins or a set registry system. Unlike PCGS and NGC, you cannot enter an ANACS slab label number into their website to see images, population, pricing data, and such. Registry Sets have become a big deal for a lot of more advanced collectors over the last few years.

ANACS to the best of my knowledge does not offer imaging services like PCGS TrueView or NGC High Resolution Photography.

CAC does not sticker ANACS holders, and CAC has become a fairly large player in the high-end collector and investor coin market.

The good:

ANA Photo Certificate, ANA small white holder, and ANACS small white holder coins, as well as the newer Yellow Label holders, tend to be fairly consistently graded, or even slightly undergraded in the case of the old white holders. They also offered net grades and split grades, which were very useful, but the practice was not picked up by PCGS or NGC.

ANACS is now in my opinion the industry leader in Morgan VAMs (along with VSS) and will attribute many of the minor VAMs that PCGS and NGC will not bother with.

ANACS recognizes and attributes the Wexler varieties on Lincoln Cents and other coins; and also recognizes and attributes many of the "less notable" Cherrypicker varieties (Fivaz-Stanton) as well as the old Finder varieties, or at least used to, whereas PCGS and NGC would only slab "notable" varieties for many years.

Although NGC is catching up / has caught up now, ANACS authenticated and slabbed many ancient and medieval coins back when the other TPG's were unwilling to do so.

ANACS is more affordable compared to PCGS and NGC, especially on bulk submits, and has faster turnaround times.

That being said, PCGS and NGC owe their position and reputation in the hobby as much to a combination of effective marketing, promotion, and advertising than to a significantly higher quality of grading accuracy in my opinion; they have leveraged deals with major auction houses and prominent collectors, slabbed famous hoards, signed agreements with all sorts of famous and not-so-famous people to put their autographs on label inserts, worked tirelessly to build value in their product (the TPG slab) with dealers and resellers, provided on-site grading and submission at major shows, made big investments in getting their TPG brands promoted in trade magazines and price guides, and so on.

These are not things that are directly related to grading coins, of course, but like most products, perceived value (the "worth" of a brand name) is not always correlated with product quality. The cost of that marketing is passed on to collectors and dealers in the form of increased submission fees, more expensive memberships, etc. In other words, you are paying a premium for the name on the label.

I like to consider ANACS a great choice for budget-minded collectors. You are getting a coin that will be graded at about the same level as PCGS and NGC, but without the "marketing" premiums added into the cost. If you are not concerned about registry sets, photography, or CAC beans, ANACS is a solid option and worth equal consideration. ANACS is also a natural fit for Morgan VAM collectors and modern error/variety collectors as well. The fact that ANACS does not spend a lot of money on marketing is also an advantage for the same reasons of lowered submission cost and faster turnaround times.

As always, buy the coin, not the holder.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2022  12:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with just about everything that paralyse wrote above about ANACS. I personally like only a couple of slabs (design wise) ANACS little white soapbox holders and SEGS holders with the top fold over label. Slider23 also nailed it with excellent points all valid and correct IMO.

That said I prefer my coins out of slabs, unless a certain value or reason to have it slabbed, ie: 1916-D dimes, and other very often counterfeited coins. I spent years learning how to grade and trust myself in grading coins I own or want to buy, but the counterfeits are getting just too good, and with some of the discoveries I've made and see from Jack Young of the "Darkside Cabinet" it's worth having certain coins backed by a monetary guarantee like PCGS and NGC have on the authenticity side.

I could care less about the registry sets, though I do like to browse them, I'll never compete and have no desire to, even if I had the money to do so they don't influence me one way or another as to a company to choose.

CAC? Yep John Albanese is a fantastic grader and coin dealer, (I looked up to him and his company way before PCGS was even a twinkle of thought), but to me it's just another service designed to get money out of the hobby, akin to selling a sort of insurance to those that have no ability or desire to learn or spend decades learning by looking and studying. Though I do appreciate what CAC does, Photo Seal from Rick Snow was the first sticker company doing a very similar thing (only on Flying eagle and Indian Head cents only), I'm happy to buy a coin stickered but I don't actively seek them out nor would I pay them to sticker my own slabs.

Just not a big fan of slabs in general, as time goes on, but I fully understand their importance in the market today. Out of the top 3 TPGs (soon to be 4 with CAC) ANACS, in my opinion will unfortunately be at the back of the pack of PCGS, NGC and CAC.

I have good friends that worked for ANACS as well as most of the other companies ICG (started by my first business partner), PCI, and SEGS beyond the top two. Every person I know that worked at those companies honestly did their very best at grading and authenticating coins, they just fell to the wayside of the market through attrition and luck of the draw and as paralyse mentioned, "marketing and promotion."

I think, another analogy are car manufactures; the top ones today are still the early big dogs (Ford/GM-Chevy) the rest are newcomers or gone by the wayside. Is CAC going to become the next Toyota or Honda? Maybe, time will tell. ANACS is still needed in the industry as a low cost solution and also as the variety ID company.

My rambling Two Cents for what it's worth - exactly nothing.

To reiterate paralyse's most important words...

Buy the coin - NOT the holder...

Oh yeah and have fun - don't get too caught up in only the grades and value.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
11/02/2022 12:27 am
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2022  12:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What did ANACS do to deserve its bad rap/rep? People said it on the internet. Then people kept repeating it. And in my observation, the loudest voices are fanboys for a particular service (cough cough PCGS cough cough). Maybe it was deserved at a point in time, I have no idea, I judge the coin and not the plastic its in. I don't own a whole lot of slabs but objectively I'd say I disagree with PCGS a lot more than ANACS (or NGC). As a casual observer it almost seems like there's a concerted effort to crush them by the other two and their related players (registry sets, CAC...).

@paralyse has many good points. One correction though - you can verify a cert on ANACS. I don't know how recent that feature is - they do appear to have redone their website since my last visit. Another plus is that they have a presence at a lot of smaller coin shows that the other two can't be bothered with.

Edit: On the guarantee thing, theirs doesn't seem much different than others, with the caveat that it applies to after 2007. https://anacs.com/the-anacs-guarantee/
Their imaging service is $3.
Edited by kbbpll
11/02/2022 01:00 am
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BH1964's Avatar
United States
10982 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2022  01:09 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ANACS changed hands (owners) a half a dozen times in the last 30 years. That alone contributed to much of their inconsistency and second tier reputation.
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Collects82's Avatar
United States
1316 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2022  02:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm a collector that has occasionally submitted to ANACS when a monthly special aligns with my stars. I digg varieties and the occasional error. Morgan VAMs and EAC or Snow attributions tickle my fancy. ANACS is awesome for this.

In terms of consistency, sometimes I'm left scratching my head, but no more or less than mistakes I see coming out of the bigger guys. NGC/PCGS certainly make some odd calls with EAC and MS Morgans here and there as well with far too many getting "market acceptable" passes too.

As others have said, PCGS/NGC are winning at marketing. But don't let that fool you on a slabbed coin by coin basis.

Always let the coin speak for itself and use your own eye and mind in grading for yourself.

The market needs ANACS.

What-Did-ANACS-Do-To-Deserve-Its-Bad-Rap?
Edited by Collects82
11/02/2022 02:25 am
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panzaldi's Avatar
United States
18663 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2022  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
perception of ANACS may be enhanced if they would bring their ugly yellow slabs into the 21st century. when you place them side by side with PCGS hand NGC holders, ANACS loses in the eye appeal category. its just like anything else, sometimes we buy with our eyes.
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