Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
300,000 items to help build your collection! Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsSpecializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

2017 P Lincoln Shield Cent Pre Cud Die Crack?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 23 / Views: 2,612Next Topic
Page: of 2
Pillar of the Community

United States
607 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2023  11:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TippyCanoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Can anyone speak to this die crack. I haven't seen it before. Any information would be helpful.
2017-P-Lincoln-Shield-Cent-Pre-Cud-Die-Crack?
2017-P-Lincoln-Shield-Cent-Pre-Cud-Die-Crack?
2017-P-Lincoln-Shield-Cent-Pre-Cud-Die-Crack?
2017-P-Lincoln-Shield-Cent-Pre-Cud-Die-Crack?
2017-P-Lincoln-Shield-Cent-Pre-Cud-Die-Crack?
Moderator
Learn More...
Dearborn's Avatar
United States
96251 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2023  11:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Does that crack return back to the rim? To me, it looks like a retained internal die break (RIDB) and a die crack
Edited by Dearborn
01/02/2023 11:59 pm
Pillar of the Community
datadragon's Avatar
United States
1648 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  12:18 am  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sure looks that way Dearborn. An island of metal surrounded by a die crack that sinks into the die face. A retained interior die break may or may not be connected to the rim by die cracks or a split die. If such a connection is absent, it is called a freestanding interior die break according to error-ref. https://www.error-ref.com/retained-...r-die-break/
Pillar of the Community
United States
607 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  02:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TippyCanoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Under the microscope the crack falls short of bisecting the second rim. It is traceable to the right shoulder
Bedrock of the Community
ijn1944's Avatar
United States
19159 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  08:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting find. Agree with the assessments above.
Pillar of the Community
stoneman227's Avatar
United States
2376 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  09:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stoneman227 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is more going on here. Considering the weakness of strike in the area affected by the crack and the corresponding weakness of strik on the reverse, this is a sunken die issue https://www.error-ref.com/?s=Sunken+die ,
associated with the die crack. Whether clinically a pre-cud or not ,a very interesting find.
Edited by stoneman227
01/03/2023 09:08 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
-makecents-'s Avatar
United States
8756 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  09:09 am  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice find, TippyCanoe! I have never seen this die before. Maybe removed after pumping just a few out? Here is a link to the listing on COC.

After looking at you "chip" and comparing the weakness on the reverse, yours would appear to be a little further along than the listing.

LINK http://cuds-on-coins.com/lincoln-sh...010-present/
-makecents-
Edited by -makecents-
01/03/2023 09:17 am
Pillar of the Community
datadragon's Avatar
United States
1648 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  11:16 am  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Makecents for the link since I sometimes forget to check cuds-on-coins for existing actual identified coins as it contains the same 2017-p DC-1c-2017P-02. It looks to me like tippys coin is bit earlier and is a freestanding interior die break while the one on Cuds is a bit later and a retained interior die break since that one is connected to the rim as dearborn was asking from what I understand.
Edited by datadragon
01/03/2023 11:19 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
2737 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was asked to comment on the weak southern hemisphere. Bifacial, unipolar design weakness can have a number of causes including (1) a tilted die error, (2) bifacial grease strike, (3) tapered planchet, (4) die subsidence error. Since there's no signs of increased localized striking pressure at the opposite pole, and since tapered planchet errors are very rare on zinc cents, option no. 2 would seem to be the most likely. I see no evidence of a die subsidence error as there is no bulge evident on either face and such errors are usually located near the center of the coin. A weight would be helpful. Also, see if the coin rocks when placed on either face.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Pillar of the Community
United States
607 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TippyCanoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will get that information to you as soon as I can. Ty!!!
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
-makecents-'s Avatar
United States
8756 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
datadragon, if the OP's coin and the listed coin, on COC (DC-1c-2017P-02), are in fact the same die, which I would find it hard to believe they are not, the OP's is definitely a later stage. You can easily see that the OP's "die chip" is longer and would have to be a later stage. I believe that Dearborn was referring to the fact that the die crack did not complete it's journey through the bust, back to the rim, which would have made it a pre-cud. JC, on COC, made changes a couple of years ago to the size a die chip had to be, in order for it to be considered an IDB but thought it odd that this is only considered a "die chip", I would have thought it would be large enough. Side by side pics below.



2017-P-Lincoln-Shield-Cent-Pre-Cud-Die-Crack?
-makecents-
Pillar of the Community
United States
607 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  8:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TippyCanoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The weight is 2.47 grams and the coin does not rock on either side when placed on a flat surface.
Pillar of the Community
datadragon's Avatar
United States
1648 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The below text from Cuds-on-Coins gives their information on the difference they use between a die chip and an interior die break. So using the actual size below might help to determine which it is if we are going by cuds-on-coins as the reference site, but yes it is interesting (depending on the actual size) that the similar coin on Cuds is listed as die chip only (starts with DC) unless its an error, and certainly in appearance differs from your typical die chip and is attached to die cracks. In the side by side image on this coin it appears longer as well. The prior error-ref link I added and here in this link as well below both mentioned that when none of the cracks reach the rim, the island of metal they radiate from is considered a freestanding retained interior die break not IDB so again just posting the info and try to apply it to this coin. Mike Diamond is here in this thread also so I'll just sit back and see what others have to say

Cuds-On-Coins:
Since voids left in the die face by natural fractures span an unbroken size continuum, there is no clear boundary between a "die chip" and an "interior die break". Any void encompassing an area of 4 square millimeters or more qualifies as an interior die break. Any void that covers less than 1 square millimeter is a die chip. In between is a gray area. Die chips are commonly encountered in all denominations. In Lincoln cents they include "BIE" errors, "plugged" 5's and 9's, and "bugs in the wheat ear".https://cuds-on-coins.com/retained-...-die-breaks/
Edited by datadragon
01/03/2023 9:22 pm
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
-makecents-'s Avatar
United States
8756 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2023  9:56 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Data, the only reason I posted what I did, was because of your reference to the die state, nothing more. Mike Diamond has forgotten more than I'll know in ten lifetimes and had nothing to do with what he will say.
-makecents-
Valued Member
gorham_collector's Avatar
United States
426 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2023  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gorham_collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Also, see if the coin rocks when placed on either face.

I ended up acquiring this coin from the OP. And thought that the same thought's read in the discussion from others.
I would like to say that the coin indeed does rock slightly more so when the reverse is facing up and you touch the bottom of the reverse.
Edited by gorham_collector
02/02/2023 10:34 pm
Pillar of the Community
silviosi's Avatar
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2023  10:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Make: The COC and the OP is not same Die. What maze me it is I can not see full pic of the coin. For plated coins we do not have this. I suppose the blank before plating was crack. Could happened. But the crack during the plating will be the first one to achieve the Cu ions, so no more crack. On the strike will not crack again. I agree with the evolution almost similar, but why crack of the plating?

Crack plating after strike it is assimilate on the torsions or extra contrary forces apply.
Edited by silviosi
02/02/2023 10:25 pm
  Previous TopicReplies: 23 / Views: 2,612Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.41 seconds to rattle this change. Forums