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 Replies: 42 / Views: 2,184 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2404 Posts |
I have 3 2020D with matching DDRs. Slight doubling above Verticals 5,7,9,11. All the gouges,nicks and dots match on Obv and Rev. My question is about the ( marks?) under the letters of E PLURIBUS. All 3 are different in that area. Do they make a difference? Thank you for your looking and help.      |
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Moderator
 United States
56855 Posts |
What attribution number? The marks under EPU looks like circulation dings,so they will vary. John1  |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2404 Posts |
John there's no 2020D DDRs listed on any of the 3 sites. I don't think these are circulation dings. They're raised.    |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
8764 Posts |
Could be a doubled working hub with multiple working dies.
Sorry, Rob. Just added a word, above, that should have already been there....
multiple "working" dies
-makecents-
Edited by -makecents-
01/07/2023 09:21 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2404 Posts |
All 3 coins has the same DDR. The same couple markers on the obverse and the same couple on the reverse. The difference is those in the circles. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8764 Posts |
THINK about what I said.
-makecents-
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Moderator
United States
56855 Posts |
If raised on the coin then they are indented on the dies,so die scratches of some kind. Maybe coop will chime in soon. John1 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2404 Posts |
 . I need help on this ( thinking thing ) I thought I had it. Thought maybe something like planchet blisters. I took a different coin with the same (marks?). Tried to smash them with toothpicks nothing happened except breaking the toothpicks. So. The doubled working hub is used to create new dies. It has all the other gouges, nicks and dots markers as all three coins have. Got it. But where, when, what are those marks under E PLURIBUS? I (REALLY) appreciate the help with figuring out this stuff on coins. Please don't think I'm disagreeing with anyone. Just need help on some of these things. Thanks very much for the help. Edited by RobO411
01/07/2023 09:40 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8764 Posts |
I don't know if you saw where I corrected myself above but here is what I meant and I could be wrong. When I read your post, the very first thing I thought, was a doubled working hub. This has been an issue on a few occasions with shield cents, 2017 P was a big one. There were a BUNCH of listed DDO's, originally but as time went on, and more examples came in, they were able to see that many, were the same doubling but had totally different markers. Come to find out, there were a couple of working hubs out there and that eliminated several DDO's, because they were all the same doubling but had different markers, because the coins came from bunches of different working dies. Hopefully this helps and as I said, I could be wrong. Won't be the first time and definitely won't be the last.  -makecents-
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
@MAKE: With all the respect, but do not exist anymore Hubs or Master Dies. The dies are made direct from the design using CNC which start in 2000. The process of producing the Dies use three different freezes of different degrees. I already put here the video about the Die Fabrication.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8764 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
@MAKE: The second link show in fact the Denver and the San Francisco. Phil used more what I say. This do not mean the DDO or DDR will not be present. Will be, you know, if come from a hub or from an CNC the error and variety still be here around. In San Francisco I saw once how from the Master Hub made an Master Die: is press with no hit, just press monitoring the pressure. Is something. The West Point is for me a mystery because there is hard to be admit to see, and now after I stop the contract with them, and my brother retire I will not be able to see again from close , nor to be at the day with the new technologies implanted. Why the want to eliminate all those steps is for the cost and the time and eliminate as much is possible the errors. Will never eliminate. If the freezes jump, will be doubling (hehehe). If the computer has a deviation even minor we have other error. The MD will be never eliminate, as also Die Cracks, or different Dies markers or Dies Stages. The fingers print are in one way eliminate but collars errors will stay there even today it is only one piece of collar, will broke and has usuries maybe more the before due to the volume of striking and also to the speed (750) coins a minute LOL. IMHO they will adapt the Canadian technology to has almost all coins proof like. We will see. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
Looks like die scratches if they are raised. Not a DDR on that EPU area. On the Single squeeze devices, the DDR's have the incuse devices showing a reduction of the size on the DDR:  Machine Doubling on incuse devices, enlarges the size of the devices. So if the marks between the letters are incuse, then it is coin damage. If they are raised, the could be die scratches. Just can't tell for sure on the images provided. Raised and incuse devices are affected differently. (Just the opposite affect on these devices) Raised devices with Machine Doubling reduces the devices. Raised devices on doubled dies, enlarge the devices sizes. Incuse devices with Machine Doubling enlarges the devices. incuse devices on doubled dies, reduces the devices sizes. Just opposite each other. Surface scratches on raised devices will be seen on the tops of the devices but flow behind the devices when they are die related on the fields. Surface scratches on incuse devices will appear to be seen on the fields (incuse) on the coins devices, and flow over the tops of incuse devices with out affecting them. Again just the opposite affects because of the raised and incuse devices. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
573 Posts |
Quote:
With all the respect, but do not exist anymore Hubs or Master Dies. The dies are made direct from the design using CNC which start in 2000. The process of producing the Dies use three different freezes of different degrees. I already put here the video about the Die Fabrication. Silviosi, that statement about CNC being used to make dies is not accurate. CNC is only used to make the master hub. All master dies, working hubs and working dies are made just as they always have been. Both quotes below are taken directly from the articles you linked: Quote:
Once the coin design is set up in a computer, a machine will carve the design directly onto the face of a master hub. Master hubs are created with a computer numerical control milling machine that carves the design directly onto the face of the master hub.
After the master hub is created, it is tested on test dies that strike sample coins. This is done so that if there are any issues, they can be altered and a new master hub can be created. Once it is perfected, the master hub is used to make master dies. The master dies are then used to create working hubs, which will then be used to make working dies that will be used to strike coins. Quote:
The master hub is used to make master dies, the second generation in the process. To make a master die, a hubbing press pushes the master hub into the cone-shaped end of a die blank to transfer the image. The press pushes the hub and die together at up to 265 tons of force, depending on the denomination. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2404 Posts |
So. Like John mentioned earlier ( die scratches). I can see that because they're on the field not in/on the letters but looks like under them.  So. If they are scratches on the dies. ( Three different dies used?) Would they be considered ( markers?) @makecents.. No worries about that here about multiple "working "dies. I resemble this statement. "Won't be the first time and definitely won't be the last ". 90% of the time I proof read before posting. A lot of times I have to edit.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8764 Posts |
Thanks, Silvio and HGK3. So the Galvano and master hub are the only things that are not made as they were, anymore, correct? The master die, on down are still produced as they have been for some time.
-makecents-
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Replies: 42 / Views: 2,184 |
Posted 01/06/2023 8:40 pm
