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1917-D Buffalo - Confirmation Of 3.5 Legs Please

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DOCC's Avatar
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 Posted 09/25/2023  08:59 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A compromised dirt find however minimal circulation wear. I'm close to convinced this is a 3.5 legger based on comparison photos from PCGS photos on graded coins. Would appreciate additional eyes on this for confirmation.


1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please
1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please
1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please
1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please

PCGS pic for comparison

1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please
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westernsky's Avatar
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 Posted 09/25/2023  09:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think this is the 3 1/2 legger as the mint mark is tilted clockwise and is situated too far right of the "E" in the five of "Five Cents" as pictured in the PCGS example.

The coin is too badly corroded to be of any significant value.

Others may have a different opinion.
Edited by westernsky
09/25/2023 10:00 am
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 Posted 09/25/2023  10:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
too far right of the "E" in the five of "Five Cents".


I did consider that and probably did not use the best PCGS illustration but if you scroll thru their graded 3.5s I personally don't see the MM being off - at least by a significant amount. I do wish VV had some markers to look for but they do not even list this variety.

Is a shame on the corrosion but if it is a 3.5 it will not get thrown in the cull bin - just holder for the novelty of it :-)
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 Posted 09/25/2023  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think @westensky is correct.
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westernsky's Avatar
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 Posted 09/25/2023  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There should also be a die break on the reverse of the coin near the 3 o'clock position running from the butt and tail of the Buffalo to the rim. (You can see it in the pictured PCGS coin.)

To see any thing like that on your coin you would need to do a full coin date and details restoration using NicADate.
I would practice on some dateless Buffalos to get an idea of how the stuff works before tackling the question coin.

Your coin almost looks like a metal detecting find.
Edited by westernsky
09/25/2023 10:47 am
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 Posted 09/25/2023  4:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Western - it is an MD find. Probably didn't make that clear enough in first sentence where I said 'dirt' coin. I'll look for the die break, thx for the intel.

Never used NicADate but have plenty of cull buffalos to test with.
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 Posted 09/25/2023  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like it has the die crack


1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please

1917-D-Buffalo---Confirmation-Of-3.5-Legs-Please
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Dearborn's Avatar
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DOCC's Avatar
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 Posted 09/25/2023  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dearborn - to be brutally honest I went thru every ref image on PCGS and I just don't see the proverbial "butt crack". Am I missing something?
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 Posted 09/25/2023  11:57 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS 1917-D 3.5 Legs nickel

That's an expensive nickel, even in very low grades. I would really reconsider the Nic-a-Date idea until you've done more research. Once you use acid, the coin is toast, and the over polished leg is a subtle feature that will almost certainly be destroyed in the process. My speculation is that if you eventually feel confident in the attribution that you sell the coin as-is to an interested party, and let the conservation become their problem.
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 Posted 09/26/2023  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed Brandmeister. I did order some Nic-a-Date and will see what sort of impact it has on culls, I would never consider something as such on a value piece. I've had this coin in Acetone overnight, will let it sit until this evening to see if any more clarity arises. Did find reference to one other marker (die break below E in STATES right off back) but could not see thru buildup - hence Acetone.
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 Posted 09/26/2023  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I get home, I'll take a better look at this and PCGS. Also curious to see the after soak images too.
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DOCC's Avatar
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 Posted 09/26/2023  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Will upload new pics tonight.
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 Posted 09/26/2023  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To see if it would be helpful, I tossed a 1963 nickel with a heavy brown patina (probably a beach coin) into a cup of 1/3 vinegar, 2/3 water. Perhaps that can gently lift the patina after a few days. I know that the pure vinegar soak can really corrode the surface, as tested in the nickel CRH threads. Vinegar still seems more gentle than Nic-a-date, though.
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 Posted 09/26/2023  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thx for the suggestion Brandmeister - I'm not a fan of Vinegar whatsoever, even if dilluted. If Acetone does not provide enough clarity to make a judgement call, I'll use a 2% alkali wash. It runs about 8 on the pH scale and is far more gentle on metal than acids (from my experience). There is a good rim so I can likely just do the reverse.
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 Posted 09/26/2023  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Surfaces on this one make it tougher to evaluate. MM does look slightly higher and rotated CW from known examples. This could be an anomaly of the surfaces though, so I'll ignore that.

Yours appears to have a more prominent front leg than the 3 1/2 leg examples. From what I've seen, after the last round of polishing on the reverse dies, the front leg continues to weaken a bit due to Die Deterioration, rather than continued die polishing. The example you have posted from PCGS isn't as late as some examples, the front leg is a bit stronger than others in even late die state with continued Die Deterioration. That said, angle of the pics, lighting, and shadows can make the front leg look more or less prominent, so I'll ignore that as well.

Lastly, Overall die state looks a bit early. Again, this is tough to judge with the surfaces. There is pretty severe reverse Die Deterioration for this date, with mismatched dies, obverse being much earlier die state than the reverse. There should be pretty extreme metal flow lines in the fields and even more so on the Buffalo. The belly, hindquarters, and rear legs are the best places to spot this extreme deterioration. From what I can make out on your example, comparing the lower rear legs, I'm not seeing the Die Deterioration. For that reason I'd lean towards not a 3 1/2 leg.

Definitely post some pics post conservation, curious how it turns out and will see if we can make out any additional details/markers.
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