1984 Double Die Lincoln Cent

I'm excited to see that my secend post of the forums, already has 46 replys, not bad for a new member ? This is the way I see the matter, having not to much knowledge on the subject ( Abraham Lincoln Does Not Have A double Ear Flap in Reality- therefore, is it not an Error with that particular mint, although it may also simply be a variety ?

Morgan's Dad,
Obviously, you're free to pursue your ideas on errors, varieties--or however you might want to term them. However, in the learning context of our forums here, where experts invest their valuable time to teach collectors accepted facts, I'm going to suggest we actively keep controversy to a minimum. Otherwise, we risk belaboring topics that have already been discussed and solved. For instance, how many pages of discussion are needed over worthless Dryer Coins?

As I'm a die variety collector, and moderator, I'm going to go on the record here and say that from now on, I'll actively promote the correct use of terminology and keeping on topic in these discussions--simply so nobody gets worn out rehashing old ideas. But, those who insist on pushing theories that fly in the face of what's being taught by experts here, well...they'll understand the meaning of moderation.

The fact that this area of numismatics is easily misunderstood suggests the complexity of the processes involved--and the necessity for correct information and terminology. If we can focus on the facts and proper terms we'll do the hobby a service in our forums. And to that end I'm here to contribute all I can--and hope many others will too.

MD,
I hope you understood by my words that I wrote in a general context, ie that we all stay focused on accepted terminology vs. making opinions the focus of minting error/die variety discussions. That's basically a recap of several points made over this thread.

I believe what he means is that there is indeed a definition for everything that happened to any odd coin whether it be error, variety, die variety, damage or some combination of the above (which can happen). Whether anyone here really "likes" the definitions isn't really an option. The definitions exist, they are widely accepted, and have a very good reason for existing, because they indeed all define very different things. A die variety is a die variety. It isn't an 'error' no matter how much you might want to make it an error. It's a die variety - no room for arguement, no reason to disagree, that's JUST what it IS. No "opinions" or "feelings", it's just a fact. Anyone who openly disagrees is just doing so to be disagreeable. I really cannot put it any simpler, except to give the following hypothetical but humorously related scenario:

You can call a cat a dog all you want, but it doesn't make the cat go "woof" nor the dog go "meow". Die varieties and errors are just as different as cats and dogs. Personally I dislike cats, but I love dogs. I wouldn't want some careless person who doesn know the difference and doesn't care about the difference to say I am a cat expert. I like dogs, and that's about it. Why should I NOT take offense to someone not caring enough to learn the difference between a cat and a dog who comes into a cat and dog forum saying I like cats? When corrected that I actually like dogs, they act like I'm making a big deal of nothing, because they are virtually interchangeable terms, and it doesn't matter which you call which.

The heck it doesn't! They have specific terms for a reason, and it's silly to think that it's only a matter of "opinion" that a Saint Bernard is actually a dog and not a cat. There's NO ROOM for opinion...it's OBVIOUSLY a dog, so calling it a cat is foolish, and continuing to insist that you want to call it a cat just because YOU disagree that it's a dog is being confrontational, bull headed, and just wrong!

Someone else comes into the forum who really doesn't know the difference and wants to learn shows a picture of a Himilayan or a Siamese and asks which it is...and that someone who doesn't really care to learn speaks up and says, "oh, that's definitely a DOG. No doubt about it." Someone else comes in and corrects them saying that's actually a cat.

Now the person who came looking to learn something simple has two different terms and still doesn't know which is the RIGHT answer. The person who knows it's a cat has to go out of their way to explain (again) that cat's go "meow" and dogs go "woof"...and that this is a cat.

Teaching errors and die varieties is hard enough without people confronting the obvious differences and laying doubt in the beginners by using incorrect terminology. It simply hinders the learning AND teaching process because those who do know the difference are CONSTANTLY having to retype the same things to the same people explaining the same differences so those who are just coming in will see 'fact' versus 'opinion'. It shouldn't need to be so difficult.

Actually I started that last post before seeing the latest two posts between you and Kurt.

And really, there is no need to apologize. Just understand that there is a real difference between the terms and that they are not interchangeable. Some of us make our living at these things, and NEED for the people who want to collect to KNOW what they are collecting and WHY. Confrontation in any form just spells MORE work to explain what has been beaten to death already. It's just not needed. Oh, by the way...be well yourself and take care. No hard feelings at all.

Morgans dad, no apology needed...I know all here have our collecting passions and we find different ways to express that.
And I do appreciate people like Chuck, Bill, Mike and others who can help give us a groundwork of knowledge for our hobby--because it helps me focus.

Hi Jim,

Well, repunched mintmarks are definitely die varieties by default and nothing else, regardless of whether they were made by mistake. That's where people get the whole thing wrong. They think anything made unintentionally are 'errors' no matter what, and that's simply not true. Perhaps the words chosen for the terms aren't the best possible words, but they are what they are.

Perhaps if they had originally termed 'errors' as 'mechanical errors' and 'die varieties' as 'human errors' there would have been more clarity, because by and large that's really the difference. Die varieties all include some sort of incorrect action by the hand of man, whether it be setting the die incorrectly for a hubbing or imcorrectly punching a date or mintmark. Errors are all mechanically wrong in some respect, whether it be a foul-up in blanking or on the minting press. Die varieties should all have been caught by human inspection because every die used is supposed to be inspected with a microscope before use, and most errors occur and go through machines without a person ever seeing them.

At the end of the day, the terms are still black and white different and there really is no gray area. And that's not opinion. A broadstruck doubled die is an error AND a die variety...nothing wrong with that - two different and completely unrelated things going on, thus two different terms to describe the same coin. Someone like me would have no interest in it because the die variety is essentially ruined by the error. That's where you and I differ. I don't care for errors at all, hence the reason WHY I don't really care for 'error' forums, don't really like having to answer a thousand 'error' questions to every five die variety questions, and don't like being called an 'error' guy. It sets things off on the wrong tone, making people think I care about their split planchets and broackages. I really don't, and wish it were separated in their minds so they would ask me about doubled dies and RPMs, and take their errors elsewhere. I know a LOT of people who collect one and not the other, and really don't care to read or hear about the other.

I like Ken Potter, but his giving up on teaching the true difference just muddies the waters for collectors. They read his articles then bring his unclear expressions about what he terms as errors (which goes against the grain of the accepted terms) to argue with the people who STILL try to teach the difference. He has spent SO MUCH time beating his head against the wall with people who refuse to learn, he just gave up and started interchanging the terms...probably because he likes both, and to him the difference isn't SO important. But that part IS opinion on my part. I don't know for sure, but will ask him when I call him next time.

As for my die reference...it has been on hold for over a year. I have gone through some tough personal times, and had to shelf it to make money at other things. The guide was being produced at a personal financial loss just to get it into the hands of collectors who wanted it. I never imagined I would be producing over 200 copies. I figured no more than a dozen people would care to have one. I was wrong, and lose around $100 every time I create a new packet of pages. I am still working my way out of debt so I can go back to finishing that reference.