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Is There A Cutoff For Acetone Cleaning Modern US Coins?

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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  2:58 pm Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Recently, I have dabbled in selling modern nickels that I find while CRH. A 2009-P nickel provoked the following thought. I know that people have strong objections to cleaning coins, even with acetone. But does that idea really apply to a relatively new coin in circulation? The coin doesn't really have patina, it has dirt. Gray film, sometimes sticky gunk, often just fingerprints and haze from handling. Is it as deeply objectionable to remove that debris prior to sale? I know if you strip the patina from a 1947 nickel and take it to a brilliant gleam with acetone, that's commonly accepted as "wrong" (and I would agree). But if I acetone cleaned a 2009 nickel to a bright gleam, is that also wrong? I don't personally see the grubby stuff as historical patina, I see it as dirt on a recent coin. If I were going to keep the coin, I wouldn't bother to ask. But in offering a coin for sale, is it preferable to sell 21st century coins after cleaning, or better to sell them with gunk included?
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DOCC's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I say make your own rules!

IMO, Acetone can work wonders on certain types of crud and I think it should be in everyone's toolset.
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cointagous's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Acetone is fine as long as you remove it after use. It's quite effective in removing grime that will continue
to affect the coins surfaces and is about the only thing I will use if needed.
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  5:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Acetone will remove paint, glue and gunk without changing the color of the coin. It is safe to use more than one time on the same coin.
It will do nothing to help undo environmental damage.
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Zurie's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think most people would consider an acetone soak to remove organic material perfectly safe, and not really a form of cleaning. It leaves no residue and has no harmful effects on the surface, and it doesn't affect the toning or patina of a coin. But I would certainly avoid other methods of improving the appearance of a coin.
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Dearborn's Avatar
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DOCC's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dearborn - I think BM was more interested in opinions on acceptable coin age. Like 10 year old nickel is ok to soak but 80 year old is not.
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Tacc's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tacc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have only experimented with Pure Acetone so far, and of course only on coins I didn't care about.
I see where it has helped in some cases and hurt in others. So making your own rules as mentioned above
would be good advice. And keep time logs for your attempts. I did not like the way it made my older pennies look after soaking. Definitely removed patina in most cases.
1 observation: I have noticed different rainbow toning has appeared in different metals with different soaking times.
Edited by Tacc
01/27/2024 6:36 pm
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datadragon's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2024  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I know that people have strong objections to cleaning coins, even with acetone. But does that idea really apply to a relatively new coin in circulation?


...."All coins are doctored," an astute numismatist once observed. "It's just a matter of degree and by whom Mother Nature or Joe Dipper."

https://www.pcgs.com/news/Detecting...Coins-Part-1
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/91/

The answer is.... most attempts at conservation are done in a way that harms the coin due to inexperience. So its best to avoid it with coins you are selling until you have at least practiced and understand the ins and outs of attempting conservation and its effects over time on your conserved coins. Its not related to age of coins. The general rule would be don't conserve at all for selling. Eventually however you can start with acetone. 2 containers of acetone actually. One for the initial short soak and one for a rinse. Check the acetone for cleanliness by putting a couple of drops of a piece of glass. If there is a dried residue, change the acetone either you have poured or that you are using. I am also going to be looking at distilled water rinse as the moisture evaporates from the coin using acetone which can give it an odd look or whitish look at times and a final distilled water rinse may restore some of it possibly.


Quote:
I did not like the way it made my older pennies look after soaking. Definitely removed patina in most cases.


Copper is the most difficult. Potentially short soak and low to no lighting, over a long soak it will affect copper at minimum. Maybe need to avoid water with copper.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...468601003590
Edited by datadragon
01/28/2024 12:02 am
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kbbpll's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2024  01:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm more curious about what makes a 2009-P nickel worth selling.
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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2024  09:03 am  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lower mintage. After the 2008 financial bust, the banks put in a very low order for coins the next year. Nickels might have been reduced even more because the Mint was releasing the celebration of Lincoln's life cents that year.
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ijn1944's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2024  09:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've never had issues using fresh, 100% acetone--ever. I've used it on very old coins, as well as new pieces--copper, nickel, silver, clad. I only use it when I believe an improvement can be achieved. A few months ago I removed a splotch of crud from a 2023 quarter with ease. I tend to go with long soaks--several hours or a bit more. followed by a fresh acetone rinse.

If you have 2009 pieces with obvious crud issues (crud you know will be elimated or greatly reduced using acetone), I'd say go ahead and soak. Ultimately, it's your call.
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datadragon's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2024  10:04 am  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good to know ijn1944. I don't think many have major issues with removing organic material as mentioned, however with verdigris for example (green stuff that gets on copper coins) unless its just in the initial stage where there is that surface fuzz where you should be able to restore and still submit for grading, you will only be able to stop the ongoing reaction but not restore damage that has already been done otherwise. Just for the usage here for nickels it shouldnt cause issue but its better not to get into a mindset to clean everything, its generally better not to clean unless its really needed and only as you get good at it.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 01/28/2024  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Acetone never removes actual patina. It might remove "fake patina", i.e. crud and ectoplasm stuck to the coin, or even certain types of artificial toning. But it will never touch genuine patina.

And if an acetone soak is "adding color", then you're doing it wrong - it means you're leaving dirty acetone on the coin to dry out. Rinse off the dirty acetone with fresh acetone before it dries.

Now for the OP's questions.

Quote:
But does that idea really apply to a relatively new coin in circulation? The coin doesn't really have patina, it has dirt. Gray film, sometimes sticky gunk, often just fingerprints and haze from handling. Is it as deeply objectionable to remove that debris prior to sale?

Patina isn't merely "old dirt". Patina is oxidized metal, chemically bonded to the surface of the coin and cannot be removed without a chemical reaction harsh enough to dissolve some of the metal. Patina is, in essence, a form of corrosion, from a chemistry point of view - but it's corrosion that is relatively mild and in some cases even beneficial, so we've learned to like the appearance and prefer to keep it there rather than remove it.

You've listed several symptoms, some of which are "patina", some are not.

"Gray film" - not quite sure what this means, but it sure sounds like patina - a dark grey toning.

"Sticky gunk" is certainly some sort of "goo" that should come off in either water or acetone.

"Fingerprints" - here we have two different factors at play. Fresh fingerprints - for example, you have literally just touched the coin a minute ago - would qualify as "oil" that can be removed with acetone. The oil has not yet had time to react with the metal. An "old fingerprint", where the metal has changed colour because of chemical reaction with the oil, is unfortunately now part of the patina. You can use acetone to wash off the remnants of the fingerprint oil, but the print itself will remain. This should not be removed, as ugly and incriminating as it may appear.

"Haze from handling" - again, not quite sure what this refers to, but it sounds like plain old wear. Which again, is patina, not dirt.

Quote:
But if I acetone cleaned a 2009 nickel to a bright gleam, is that also wrong?

On the general topic of "dirty new coins", a 2009 nickel is 15 years old - that's starting to get old enough for "genuine patina" to develop. A 2019 nickel, on the other hand, is not. One then has to wonder how a coin that new ould get so "dirty" in such a short time. The answer is usually "environmental damage" - in other words, aggressive corrosion due to adverse chemical conditions. Tossed in a swimming pool and left there for a month or so, getting buried in acidic soil, even getting tossed into a fire, can all cause severe corrosion to develop even on a brand new coin. We call this "corrosion" rather than "patina", because it's ugly and we don't like it, but it's chemically not all that different to normal patina. Such coins are generally considered "beyond repair" - anything done to remove the corrosion is going to result in a "cleaned coin".

On the subject of disclosure: acetone cleaning need not be disclosed, since it does not chemically react with the coin or the patina. Anything that removes patina/corrosion - acids, electrolysis, silver dip, a brass brush - should be disclosed on sale, especially if such treatment is not otherwise evident in the sale listing.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Tacc's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2024  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tacc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Don't say "never" when you mean "usually"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really accurate


I assume you're talking to me there SAP.
When I say "my experiments" they are Experiments, aka Trial & Error.
There is no "Doing it Wrong" bud. I'm just reporting my reults honestly, and
If it helps someone that's great, if not that's great too.
You thinking you are the end all expert in cleaning coins is a joke.
You take yourself way to serious pal.
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DOCC's Avatar
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 Posted 01/29/2024  08:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And if an acetone soak is "adding color", then you're doing it wrong - it means you're leaving dirty acetone on the coin to dry out. Rinse off the dirty acetone with fresh acetone before it dries.


I've had newer 'Red' Lincolns rainbow with fresh Acetone while submerged. Mildly rainbowed but noticeably colored nonetheless. No way to tell if there was a thin layer of organics (oil, grease, etc...) that Acetone removed to expose true colors. But, Acetone (big box store so 100% always questionable) has 'added color' albeit seldomly for me.
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