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 Replies: 22 / Views: 2,638 |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I freely admit that the biggest enjoyment I get from collecting coins is the thrill of the chase, seeking to cherrypick unattributed Morgan VAM's. A few minutes ago I nailed a good one - it might just be a Condition Census example of an R-6 VAM. If it proves to be Mint State at all, I'm into it for no more than 25% of its' actual value and probably a whole lot less. It was cherrypicked from the inventory of a large and reputable ebay dealer. This dealer has about a thousand coins on ebay at all times, including a couple hundred Morgans, and occasionally attributes VAM's so I know he's aware of them. Just like every other time I've done this, and there have been more than a few, it's only with a pang of guilt that I make the purchase. The seller is giving up considerable value in this coin, in return for volume - he obviously doesn't have the time to attribute every single Morgan he offers. Good arguments can be made both for and against the practice of cherrypicking - my own mind is made up on the subject, of course, but I can understand why one might consider the process to be suboptimal from a moral standpoint. One thing I sometimes do, as a way of "paying it back," is to regularly check the inventory of certain dealers who have made me money in the past, and let them know about value-added varieties they've missed. So, what do you think of this practice? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1424 Posts |
I think if someone is selling something for a set price and you pay that price, all is good.
Now if someone asks "what will you give me for this coin" and you offer silver melt value or common date value knowing it's a rare variety then you are a crook.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
Buyer/Seller Beware...those who do their research usually come out ahead.
A good mentor of mine told me that "experience is best educator, however it usually comes AFTER you need it". And we all know that education is expensive. If some gets burned on a coin variety, and they learn something after the fact, chalk it up on a lesson learned the hard way.
success,
Edited by oih82w8
04/19/2009 11:06 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
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So, what do you think of this practice? I'll use myself as an example. The last two shows, I picked up the following coins: 1999-S LMC Close AM proof for $8. 1998-S LMC Close AM proof for $4. Canada 1884 large cent with C1 obverse in VF20 for $5. Suffice to say--all 3 are quite scarce, one perhaps even rare. And all were in plain sight in albums on dealer tables.  There's no deception here because anyone can learn about these coins and profit from knowledge--dealers and collectors alike.  |
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Valued Member
United States
292 Posts |
 with each of these above. As a "new" collector, I try to learn as much as I can about each coin I plan to buy before I get it. Of course that is half of the fun to me-learning about it! If I don't feel I know enough about the coin, I will wait-even though it may cost me a good deal in the process. I would rather go in with my "eyes open" than gamble (I have terrible luck most times) so I feel the onus of knowledge is on the seller...and the buyer  . That being said, of course there always circumstances to be taken into account (i.e. purchasing from someone who obviously doesn't know much about coins) in which case I will always take the high road. At least I will be able to sleep at night...thanks for letting me ramble |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1077 Posts |
Agreed. If you are buying from someone who has the knowledge and has offered a coin at a price they are happy with you have done nothing wrong. You state that they know about VAMs, you are not ripping them off.
as bmanofnbc says, it would be different if someone came to you with some coins for you to value and you took advantage of them because they were happy with the price you offered.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1083 Posts |
Dave, I think cherry picking is more common with VAMs and Morgans because the varieties are not widely understood or recognized. Since I don't collect Morgan VAMs I don't engage in the practice. My one past example was my purchase from a large on-line ebay dealer of a 1838 Half Dime for my Dansco Type set. I took it on a But It Now price of $42 plus shipping. The picture was poor, but my suspicion was confirmed when I received it. It was the small stars variety, a one year only variety, and even though darkly toned, graded at AU-50. Easily worth a factor of five times what I paid for it. I have not had a single twinge of conscience and I don't think you should either. |
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Moderator
United States
187950 Posts |
I feel that cherry picking from dealers (or other educated and experienced coin handlers) is okay, but to do the same with a novice is not. I am sure most cherry pickers (at least the ones on CCF) are dealing with educated people that have had a fair chance to attribute the coins. I have read more than one story here where people have attempted to "make things right" in situations dealing with the less-educated. I think SuperDave is one (of many) that sets a good example for all. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
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I feel that cherry picking from dealers (or other educated and experienced coin handlers) is okay, but to do the same with a novice is not. And it's a pretty cool experience to help a collector discover they have a scarce variety. I've done that a few times here...and sometimes I tell dealers too. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
How much time have you spent learning about VAMs? How much time have you spent searching for these coins? You should probably take this into account. Sure you may have paid 25% of what the coin was worth, but the work that went into finding that coin was significant as well. In my opinion the other 75% was money that you earned.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
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How much time have you spent learning about VAMs? How much time have you spent searching for these coins? That's a fair point. The coin I purchased was one of maybe 200 I looked at that day, and that was an average day for me. I look at a thousand or two Morgans a week - every single 1878 and 1921 on ebay and a few other places, as well as every single Morgan (of any year) offered by a few high-volume ebay dealers. I probably spend 20 hours a week just on Morgans, and they're not my only numismatic interest. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5953 Posts |
Strange this kind of came up today. I went to the college station coin show today. was only there for about 20 mins as there were only eight tables. A dealer who I have purchased from in the past had a 2 cent coin in his display. Even from a distance I could see it had been cleaned. I could also see a full 'WE' It was marked about XF. $34 CDN  I took a look and asked how much? He knows me so he quoted the $34 from CDN. I complained it had been cleaned and that XF was a little high. He examined the coin closely. He then agreed to drop to $30. I paid $40 and told him to invest in some books. Why? Check out this and see if you can see why I was willing to pay $10 more than he asked and still thought I was getting a great deal on a cleaned coin. The dealer was happy with the extra he made over his purchase price and I was happy with my cheap buy maybe not up to SuperDave's margins but enough to make my day today.  Edited by nohope587
04/19/2009 7:31 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
781 Posts |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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Check out this and see if you can see why I was willing to pay $10 more than he asked and still thought I was getting a great deal on a cleaned coin. Fancy 5, but those aren't worth much of a premium, from Heritage's records. Is it the (rather heavy) doubling on the reverse? That looked like Machine Doubling to me, but I don't know the varieties for this issue. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Cherrypicking and honesty sometimes good and sometimes maybe not. At a local flea market a dealer there sells coins. He is rather raggety and not to bright a person. He gets there on Friday for the Friday flea market and stays in his van at night for Saturday. So on his tables he usually has 3 bins of coins. He DUMPS US coins in two of them, foreign coins are DUMPED into the other one. Over the years I've purchased possibly over a thousand Mercury dimes from him from those bins. Almost every year and mint mark possible including a 42D/41, 21D, 26S, etc. His prices on Merc Dimes has always been $1/coin but the more you buy, the cheaper the coin. I USED TO buy enough of those that the price is from $0.80 to $0.90 each. This dealer USED to not have any idea of coins values except if old should cost more, maybe. So I finally got irritated and got him a Numismatic Listing of coin prices. Told him of coin shows and how dealer put coins in 2x2's. Told him he is loosing out on a lot of money. Told him about coin albums and folders. So guess what. Now he sells like a coin dealer. I could not cherry pick anything anymore since he now looks at everything and prices like a true coin dealer. Me and my big mouth or did I do the right thing? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2049 Posts |
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Buyer/Seller Beware...those who do their research usually come out ahead. Couldnt agree more. The more common saying obviously is buyer beware, but it goes both ways. I am still amazed that I get odd looks or responses when I use the phrase "seller beware". If a seller doesn't take the time to properly research an item, whether it's out of laziness, or not enough time or not enough knowledge, the buyer in no way should be held responsible or feel guilty if they paid what the seller asked for it. |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 2,638 |
Posted 04/17/2009 10:12 pm
