Chalkis Hoard

Unfortunately I do not think you will get those answers..Personally I think it is a serious loss to the history of Greece.Those coins should have been offered to a Greek museum.That's my opinion though others might not feel the same way

I agree that the coins should have been OFFERED to a Greek museum, however, they do NOT belong to Greece! They were lost money. MONEY - that's all. Not historic artifacts - money. If they were found on privately owned land they belong to the land owner. If that person wants to sell them FINE. But if the museum wants them THE MUSEUM should pay a fair market price - at auction against private collectors. Too often coins are seen as BELONGING to the government and they are essentially stolen from the finder by confiscatory laws and blatantly unfair export regulations.

The historic value in the hoard was PRESERVED when it was published. The physical coins are not essential after publication and museum replicas could be substituted. Retaining the entire hoard in a museum means no one has access.

I know that is not the politically correct sentiment, but the present government of Greece has NO ties to the original owner of the hoard and certainly it is not the same government that struck the coins. Modern laws of ownership have twisted the issue and made it more complex than it should be. The subject of who owns lost property - especially valuable property - is a hot button topic.

There is a movement today which believes a Government can make laws that change ownership of items like coins on a whim... I charge that usually profit is the whim - I think of the 1933 20 dollar gold coins stolen by the US government from their rightful owners. I am concerned that there is a move afoot to KILL all ancient coin collecting by saying the coins somehow still BELONG to the original countries. BALONEY.

If they can do it with ancient coins today, why not come to the door of every citizen and say I want all your silver coins back - we will pay you in paper currency at FACE value. Would you do it?

Money changes hands as it should and as it has always done, and when you own a coin it is yours PERIOD. If I have a coin in my possession it is mine unless someone else can prove I took it from them. The government is not a party. If I want to melt my coin, or protect it or sell it, or bury it in the ground that is my business and no one else should interfere.

Just because a political entity occupies a space they think they "own everything". I simply do not agree and never will. A free country is supposed to be free and private ownership is essential.

It is time for all coin collectors to say NO MORE - keep your money grubbing hands off OUR coins.

I agree that in some countries the exact ownership of ancient coins is a bit murky. I heard those stories a few months back about the dealers in Germany having their stock confiscated by the German government, and I know that export laws in some Mediterranean countries bar the removal of ancients from the country in which they are found. So this does make me worry a bit about how the legality of all collectible and antique coinage may shift. (Come to think of it, this could also be a response to that thread in the Main forum about the future of numismatics). Laws may change in the future, which may harm or benefit those with our addiction. But I think that what many governments should also remember is that whenever a hoard is found, what truly should be important to the country is the history that is revealed. Also, in cases such as that of the Black Swan ship that was found (whatever became of that case anyway?), ownership in the modern day really is quite nebulous since often insurance paid individuals or even governmental bodies when it was lost.
I am not saying that governments are wrong or right, I just hope that they always respect the rights of numismatists.

Hi Elefinoras

Ooh, a raw nerve indeed, and sorry, but I have to side with the others on this point. I think swamperbob covered it very well.

If I ever came across a previously unknown coin with great historical value then I may be tempted to loan it to a museum (but not necessarily in the country of origin). Also, how do you define a treasure of historical value? This could apply to almost any object of sufficient age (and who decides that)? Should I ship my Grundig 8 track reel-to-reel tape recorder (circa 1960) back to Germany if it was deemed to have historical value?

I respect your concerns for a country's heritage and if the hoard had been 'stolen' from a museum or national collection then I'm totally with you. But, as pointed out above, coins are and were made for 'general' circulation (if still in circulation or not) so how and where they end up is a matter of chance.

I believe countries should have the right to set whatever laws they please regarding historic objects within their territory, and I would expect all citizens and visitors to that country to respect those laws, however draconian they may be.

For those reading this thread who are unaware of the situation in Greece, they have very, very strict laws regarding antiquities there. An "antiquity" is defined as any object older than 1820, and coins are included. Any antiquity not currently registered as being owned by a private individual or organization in Greece belongs to the State. All antiquities currently still buried in the ground belong to the State, whether on private or public land or underwater within Greek territorial waters. Searching for antiquities and owning a metal detector are crimes, unless you have a permit (and unless you're a certified archaeologist, your chances of being granted a permit are zero).

Greek citizens may acquire antiquities at auction, but their ownership is restricted: they cannot export them or damage them, and their sale must be recorded so that the State knows where they are at all times. A detailed inventory of the collection must be kept and the collection must be available for examination or study by government agents or archaeologists.

I do sympathize to an extent with the reasoning behind this attitude; Greece (and Turkey, and Cyprus, and Israel, and Egypt) have had centuries of conquerors come in and plunder their heritage, with no recourse and little or no compensation. All these countries now have strict anti-looting laws.

However, I do believe that in attempting to preserve their history, such severe laws do more harm than good. These countries have fallen into the "archaeologist mindset": that all antiquities should remain in museums. In the eyes of your typical archaeologist, collectors are basically evil and deserve to be suppressed by any means necessary. This attitude has, in my opinion, been disastrous for countries like Greece, which frankly has too much history just to keep to itself. It can't afford to keep all the museums and state-sponsored collections going. The Greek Ministry of Education and Religious Affairs is a huge bureaucracy with an army of archaeologists on staff, but there's so much archaeology underfoot in Greece that there still aren't enough of them to do all the work that needs doing. Meanwhile, the general public are actively discouraged from owning a piece of their country's history, to the detriment of both archaeology and numismatics.

If the Greek government were prepared to be a little more lax, everyone could benefit. Money raised from the sale of unnecessary, superfluous artefacts (coins are an excellent example) could be used to help fund the museums and train more archaeologists.


It is this very attitude the archaeologists hate and fear most: the wanton destruction or desecration of artefacts "just because I can". And I have to say, that if a large number of collectors actually put this attitude into practice, I'd be much more inclined to support the archaeologist viewpoint and lock away all ancient coins out of harm's reach. Fortunately, most collectors actually have more of a "I'm a custodian of history" attitude to their collections, so such drastic action against collectors is not necessary. Indeed, most collectors usually take better care of their collections than (underfunded) museums do.


If you're arguing that all ancient Greek coins should be sent back home to Greece, I couldn't disagree more with the sentiment. Archaeological artefacts should not be concentrated in one place. History shows us that no country is stable in the long term, and niceties such as "respecting museums and historic sites" quickly go out the window during periods of war, civil strife and anarchy. The looting of Iraq's museums following the US invasion there is an excellent example. The best way to ensure at least some antiquities are properly preserved is to disperse them out all over the planet. That way, if the museums in one country are all destroyed and looted, the other countries will take up the slack and continue to preserve their history.

History belongs to all of us, not just the people who happen to live in the places where history happened.

SAP I almost agree completely when you say:




But I propose a few simple conditions that need to be considered: First that the country is a free country - so that the people have had a say in the rules (not a dictatorial power), second that the rules do not mandate the destruction of any artifact (I am thinking of the destruction of statues in Afghanistan on the pretext of religious beliefs being made law) and finally that any such laws apply ONLY to items within their territory.

Items already outside the country simply CAN NOT be reclaimed.

I am glad to know that the Greek attitude is as you described. I have crossed Greece off my list of places to see before I die.

*edit- Can't touch this one yet...still too hot..