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An "Original" Maria Theresa Taler (Thaler)

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2009  8:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Well, I am in a running dispute with a fellow on ebay that has posted a VERY RARE original 1780 Maria Theresa Thaler. It apparently has some "doubling" but I can not see it.

Here is the auction link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...250495144893

The problem I have is with what he says about the coin in his description. Here is the text under description:


Quote:
Austria P-1780 Silver oz. Trade dollar Error!!

This 1780 Maria Theresa Trade dollar Thaler is one oz. silver with Reverse Errors. This coin being rare let alone with errors was produced by Maria Theresa original in 1765 for her husband Francis I and there were three type coins made by her order and the last being the P-1780 which she died just after and few where minted. The "8" in the date is doubled and the entire Eagle on reverse is doubled and mis-struck as they don't match up as the World coin Book shows they should. This coin is 33g and 1 1/2" dia. with mint and markings on the edge of coin which was the starting on coin edge printing back in the 1700's. THis coin is stunning and has great detail and Historical Value due to the coin was made right before Maria Theresa died and none where made after her death that year. Its Rare and unknown the amount produced as it was made in just a short period of time!


The coin appears to be a 20th century restrike type. The doubling is most likely Strike Doubling which happened on some of the poorer types made during WWII.

But just to try to set the record straight I wrote to him. Here is what I sent.


Quote:
Dear floydandfriends,

Hi, Just thought you should know the coin is a posthumous issue because on the reverse the coin reads AVST - the coins made during her lifetime read AUST. In addition the coin has been restruck numerous times and the variety you have posted was made AFTER 1900. Check the other ebay auctions or Walter Hafner's "Lexicon of the MTT". Bob

- swamperbob


Here is the answer:


Quote:
Dear swamperbob,

I have every book on coins there is and there were only three made during her life.

- floydandfriends


Obviously there is a failure to communicate here. But he is correct when he says

Quote:
... there were only three made during her life.


There were in fact only three varieties made in her lifetime according to Walter Hafner who wrote the definitive book on MTT's. That precision THREE - made me suspect a fraudulent dealer who was parsing his words so that he could not be accused of lying. But in his description he says the coin is one ounce of silver and that it weighs 33 grams which is 5 grams too heavy.

So do you think I am dealing with a well informed person who is being deceptive about his coin, or am I dealing with a totally uninformed or misinformed person who has not got a clue.
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2009  9:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The description of doubling got me curious enough to enlarge/enhance the photo.
I don't collect Thalers, but I'm familiar enough with die doubling and retooling of dates. I just don't see it.

An-
Edited by DVCollector
09/10/2009 9:24 pm
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2009  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Zohar of Thalers will report in soon. Hi Zohar!
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echizento's Avatar
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23731 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2009  10:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I not seeing any doubling from the pictures, but from what I can see this is not an original 1780 strike. This is a re-strike circa 1940's- 60's.
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2009  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, what can you do, Swamperbob. You tried to warn the guy. He seems to not really know much about the world of Talers despite supposedly having "every book on coins there is."I have a feeling that this guy is unaware of A LOT of numismatic literature that has been published since the 16th century.
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jfransch's Avatar
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1801 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2009  12:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coin is an obvious restrike. The restikes have the signature under the bust and a pointed "A" in her name on the obverse. (thanks Bob for the AVST/AUST thing, I never knew that) I think you are dealing with an "uniformed/unwilling to learn get rich quick scammer" since he is not willing to have a discussion about the coin and listen to the facts. If he truly had "every book on coins made" and he had the ability to read, he would know the coin is a common restrike. Besides, if the coin is a true rarity like he believes, why start the bidding at $7 under melt value for the 1 ounce of silver. Personally I think the coin might be a chinese knockoff of an MTT.
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wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2009  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to add my two thalers
From the Wiki

Quote:
Since 1780, the coin has always been dated 1780. On September 19, 1857, Emperor Franz Josef I of Austria declared the Maria Theresa Taler to be an official trade coinage. A little over a year later, on October 31, 1858, the Maria Theresa Taler lost its status as currency in Austria.

The following mints have struck MTTs: Birmingham, Bombay, Brussels, London, Paris, Rome and Utrecht, in addition to the Habsburg mints in Günzburg, Hall, Karlsburg, Kremnica, Milan, Prague and Vienna. Between 1751 and 2000, some 389 million were minted. These different mints distinguished their issues by slight alterations to the saltire, or flower symbol, which looks like an X, at the top left of the reverse side of the coin.


I guess it kinda 'rare' only 389 million!
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2009  11:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For anyone interested, here is a link to an OLDER restrike.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...350249102475

This particular coin was made at the Gunzburg mint between 1781 and 1788. Almost an original! The reference is Hafner #27.

Here is the coin itself:


An-

An-

I am posting this coin to show some of the differences you find in the original and near original MTT's when compared to the recently made restrikes. The series is NOT as boring as most people presume - especially when you realize that the vast majority of the 339 million are made in the very recent style.

One of the differences noted above is the shape of the U in AUST. There are two letter shapes U and V. This one has U.

I just want to make the U vs V distinction clear - all MTT's made during Maria's lifetime have the round U. All copies with V are restrikes made after her death, but there is a small group of varieties that use the Round U and which were struck shortly AFTER her death (up to 1805) - all are scarce and in general are on a par with originals in value. So if you have a MTT with the round U it has to be one of the following Hafner types: (originals in red).

#4 Struck at Prague 1780 - $1500 catalog price VF - Hafner (1984)
#6 Struck at Vienna 1780 - $1300
#7 Struck at Vienna 1780 - $1300

#8 Struck at Vienna 1782 and 1783 - $500
#25 Struck at Gunzburg 1780 - RARE
#26 Struck at Gunzburg 1781 - 1788 $120 colons used at SF
#27 Struck at Gunzburg 1781 - 1788 $80 periods at SF
#28 Struck at Gunzburg 1789 - 1792 $50
#29 Struck at Gunzburg 1789 - 1792 $50
#30 Struck at ? 1790 $300
#31 Struck at Gunzburg 1792 - 1805 $110
#32a,b " " Gunzburg 1792 - 1805 $100
#79 Struck at Kremnitz 1784 $250
#91 Struck at Vienna 1780 $70 I.C.F.A. (no SF) Var #6
#92 Struck at Vienna 1780 $400 Var #7


All others have the pointed V.

There are 7 or 8 major features that are quite different from the TYPICAL restrike.

Any guesses?
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2009  1:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very cool to see one of these. My guesses as to how the features differ from a typical restrike:
1. In the word "AUST" the second letter is an actual "U" rather than a "V," which was typical on later restrikes.
2. The Shape of the "X" (which is actually a symbol of ownership of the Austrian Netherlands than an actual X) is different than later restrikes, and I believe that the serifs somehow indicate the exact mint.
3. The Number of tail feathers.
4. The shape of the feathers on the eagle's wings.
5. The Design of the shield at the very center of the coat of arms and the style of the crown are a dead giveaway that this is an early restrike.
6. There is no signature under the bust.
7. The actual shape of the bust is a bit "thinner" than later strikes of this coin. I believe that in these later strikes she also had a more prominent chin.
Edited by Archraz
09/17/2009 1:00 pm
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 09/17/2009  9:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Archraz Not bad at all.

Hafner lists a series of primary variable items he uses to characterize all of the MTT varieties.

His list begins with the mint mark (see below) and then the coat of arms. There are many varieties of the coat of arms including one with a bird in the lower right quadrant. But Hafner focuses on the shape of the central shield only - which comes in three version.

Third are the three variations of the Brooch
a. Oval no diamonds
b. Round with 9 diamonds
c. Oval with 9 diamonds - seen on all restrikes

Fourth the number of pearls in the diadem (crown)

Fifth the type of punctuation of the Cross (saltaire ? spelling) the "X".

The other variables which fall into subcategories are the number and arrangement of tail feathers, position and number of minor feathers and punctuation variance. The letter U is one of those sub-category variables because in large measure nearly all MTT's use the V. There are too many variables to list but you get the picture.

Not all of these variables occur on all coins (specifically the mint marks) and not all of these are variable between any two individual specimens you might be comparing. But if you get to know the bigger ones you can cherry pick inventory and even junk boxes. Imagine finding a Karlsburg original in a junk box for $12!

When you compare the Hafner # 27 to a typical Modern restrike the 7 features that stand out most to me are - after the U.

1. The brooch shape. In this case it is the plain oval. This is a feature of all of the Original types. There are no plain oval brooches made after 1805. Here is a photographic comparison:


An-

2. The second variation is one of those pesky subvarieties - the position of the punctuation between the S and F beneath the bust.

But first I will tackle the subject of mint marks. You indicated as point 6 the "signature under the bust". The SF is a mint mark and it appears on Original Gunzburg coins in 1780. By contrast the other mint marks on 1780 issues are all found on the reverse under the eagle in the form of 4 or 5 letters - 2 or 3 on each side positioned under the claws. The SF mint mark (Gunzburg) was adopted as standard for all restrikes made after 1790 and it was used regardless of where the coin was made.

There are five reverse mint marks:

A.H. G.S. for Karlsburg
EvS I.K. and P.S. I.K. for Prague
S.K. B.D./B for Kremnitz
T.S. I.F. for Gunzburg 1792-1796

Under the bust are:

F.S. for Venice 1815 only
SF, S.F., S:F: etc for Gunzburg and other locations after 1790

A blank space under the bust and No reverse mint mark - identifies unauthorized North African copies (private mint) that some people like myself classify as Bullion Counterfeits like the Boston 8 Reales. These North African restrikes are usually found with Hejaz or Nejed countermarks - they date from about 1920.

One other warning - counterfeits exist - just today I saw one with the mint mark S. It appeared to be an alteration.

But in this case the #27 differs from the average restrike because the periods between the S and F are placed LOW.



An-

The next variable is one of the Hafner "big 5". I am referring to the number of pearls in the diadem. The number of pearls in the diadem or crown varies - types exist with 0, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 pearls. In this case, we have coins with 5 and 8 - see below: (note: the modern copies usually have 8. Some coins which are struck from worn dies can make the counting difficult.)


An-

Next is a major design feature which is not even mentioned by Hafner - the position of the head veil in relation to Maria's neck. The earliest types have a straight drapery that hides her neck - the curved drapery exposing her neck comes in several variations (most are rare). The variants were first introduced as early as 1781 and can be subtile. The curved drapery as shown on the right is the modern standard - it originated in Vienna before 1800 and was adopted on essentially all coins made after 1815.



An-

Next are the small feathers between the large wing feathers. Modern restrikes have 3 in each case - three single lines. The most common modern copies have three lines of EQUAL length between the two feathers nearest the T in TYR. Some "early modern" strikes have three small feathers with the central line longest and on scarcer varieties there are other arrangements. The coin on the right shows the EQUAL length configuration. One interresting die variety caused by erosion produced coins with what look like arrows between the feathers. I own a few but do not have a picture available. They date to WWII.



An-

The next feature is the central shield. As noted above, there are innumerable variations in the entire shield but Hafner focuses on the shape of the central shield. There are three shapes - Rounded Bottom - V shaped bottom and Pointed bottom like a horizontal bracket shape {. The modern copies all have the pointed bottom (bracket shaped) shield. Round and Pointed are both scarce.



An-

Finally we have the Cross, X or saltaire (need to check spelling there). There are many different shapes but Hafner chooses to ignore the shape and he uses 7 variations of the punctuation. The modern restrikes all have a period before the X but NOT AFTER. The earliest copies have many other configurations but one was the period X. The Gunzburg types have no period on the early strikes.



An-

That was a long post - sorry, but the subject of the MTT's is a favorite of mine. No one has ever attempted a completely definitive list - that would likely be impossible. I got my first MTT in 1960. I have owned about 60 varieties at different times.
Edited by swamperbob
09/17/2009 10:25 pm
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jfransch's Avatar
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1801 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2009  11:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great post Swamperbob! You left out one easy marker (the one I was taught when I was a kid hanging around coin stores in the stone age). All the modern restrikes have a pointed top "A" in Theresia on the obverse. Only the original restikes, like the one you posted have the flat top "A"
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Archraz's Avatar
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3499 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2009  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob- Thanks for the info! Very fascinating.

I really am kicking myself now since a few years ago I sold off my one 1780 MTT for junk silver. It was a horribly dirty and quite worn (probably F15) coin. A friend of mine found it in a park a few years before I received it. I sold it off because I had been told that all of the 1780s were the same. The amount of wear that the coin had certainly indicated circulation, so I wonder just how old it truly was.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 09/18/2009  02:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jfransch I have never heard about the font used for the A in the Queen's name. I checked the photos I have and found a few different A's were used on the 1780 strikes. All have a flat top with Gunzberg being the widest. Here is a picture:


An-

Hafner does not use the A as a diagnostic in his book, but he does not use or cover everything.

On the Internet the best site with photos is:

http://www.theresia.name/en/svariants.html

That is where I got the photos of the A's. I did find on that site a reference to a pointed A on the Hafner # 25 but with no photo.

But for anyone exploring the subject there are more than enough varieties to go around.

Archraz The mistaken belief that all 1780 MTT's are common and the same is why I always hunt through junk foreign silver boxes whenever I can. You would be surprised at what you find.

Information is indispensable when hunting in junk boxes.
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Thailand
1509 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  04:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thai-vic to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to everyone for a very detailed and fascinating lesson.

I've only recently come across my first MTT and I had no idea about all of the above. I had to advise the person who showed it to me that I had no idea as to its date and value but did warn him that it may be a relatively modern issue or even fake.
I'll try to contact him and see if he still has it and get it scanned for your opinions.
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alganbagerap's Avatar
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2490 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  06:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add alganbagerap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to all for your scholarly masterwork. My two MTT were, I thought, very modern restrikes. Now I'm looking very closely and for the first time I can see the differences between them. Thanks again, Gentlemen.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 09/18/2009  12:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thai-vic - Definitely post pictures - there are "new" varieties being discovered all the time and even counterfeit varieties are very interesting.

alganbagerap If you can share the pictures of your MTT's with the differences you have found.

I just located another copy of the Hafner #27 on ebay. Here is the link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1780-Maria-Ther...110436062358

I wrote to the seller regarding the damage and he indicates it is NOT A REPAIRED HOLE. Even with the damage, this coin should be an inexpensive example of a very old type which has great remaining detail. I have placed a low wholesale price snipe bid on the coin - but would cancel that if anyone is interested in owning this one as a decent example of this coin. I would expect it will stay under $100 but should bring more than $70.
Edited by swamperbob
09/18/2009 1:07 pm
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