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 Replies: 25 / Views: 13,958 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
539 Posts |
since we have started a number of threads on cleaning I have one I would like to banter about. I own at least one coin that was cleaned at some point in time in its history. I didn't do it but I did buy it thinking it was probably cleaned. I'm a bit of a cynic on this topic. I think most of the stuff I'm looking at that is more than a $10 coin is getting some kind of cleaning. Now, I say that with the clarifying statement I'm talking about dark side coins. I have no idea how many US coins get cleaned. But I can tell you it looks like a lot of dark side does. I don't know whether people are doing it because it looks better. After all you can actually see the coin without the aid of 60 million lumen or photoshop to enhance the picture. For whatever the reason I see it a lot. Nobody admits to it but really, how many coins were that well cared for 100 years ago or for that matter 50 years ago from places like Botswana or any number of French colonies. But here is my question, at what point does a cleaned coin just become a regular coin again. After all if I were to carry that cleaned coin around with me for say 1 year or bury it in my backyard for 6 months, can you still tell it was cleaned or even care it was cleaned. How many years does a cleaning take to wear off? I'm not thinking about doing either of these things. I have at least one cleaned coin and I'm good with that. But if I were to sell that coin or any coin, how would I know if it had been cleaned 5, 15, 20 or 30 years ago? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts |
I own some cleaned coins that I still like, not too many but some for sure. I don't think all cleaned coins are bad, but in MOST cases CLEANING a coin is not a good idea unless it it done properly. In most cases it shouldn't be done at all!
Those that were obviously cleaned were either beyond help or done by an amateur.
Under high magnification surface scratches will be the telltale of a cleaning.
I have thought of using a badly cleaned coin as a pocket piece and carrying it around for a long time with other change just to see if it improves the coin any.
I just never remember to do it nor do I actually carry change very often.
I think that a lot of coins in collections have been cleaned to some degree or another.
To me, I would not misrepresent a coin if I knew it was cleaned and was selling it, but if I like the way a coin looks, I'll still collect it.
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Valued Member
United States
376 Posts |
I've heard that you can put a cleaned coin in a window sill and it will re-tone. Never tried it and never seen it done but if you want to give it a try go for it. What can it hurt? I'd imagine it would take quite some time to look near normal again, if ever.
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Valued Member
United States
149 Posts |
The metal really matters... And how it was cleaned also matters. I currently have quite a few silver coins that are sunbathing day after day, but those are coins that have just been dipped and not cleaned abrasively. If you can see scratches, the only way to really get rid of those would to have it "circulate" again. If a coin has been polished, good luck with trying to get that cleaning gone. I have an 1886 Quarter that I have been giving thought to using it as a pocket piece to try to circulate it some more, but that is a pretty expensive trial. It still shows luster, but obviously cleaned. If it is copper, give dellers darkener a try. It mainly works on old large cents, Half Cents, and sometimes Indians. I have bought obviously cleaned Half Cents, and large cents, re-cleaned, applied darkener, and they have looked good! I still have those in my collection, and are still marked cleaned. But I have no problem with taking a coin that has already been cleaned, and doing what I can to make it look better... but taking uncleaned coins and cleaning them is still high on the no-no list! |
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Moderator
 Australia
16827 Posts |
Quote:
But here is my question, at what point does a cleaned coin just become a regular coin again. After all if I were to carry that cleaned coin around with me for say 1 year or bury it in my backyard for 6 months, can you still tell it was cleaned or even care it was cleaned. How many years does a cleaning take to wear off? Cleaning doesn't "wear off", in the sense that cleaning is itself a form of wear. Anything done to "remove the cleaning" will just make the coin as a whole worse. There are two common "treatments" for cleaned coins I've seen on the forums, neither of which I'd recommend personally: 1. Use it as a pocket piece. You could call it "artificial circulation", because that is what you're attempting to do - imitate the "natural" process of a coin circulating in everybody's pockets by circulating it in your own pocket. Eventually, the cleaning damage wears away, along with the rest of the coin's surface. Naturally, the end result is a coin that's in far worse condition than it originally started out in before the cleaning. In my opinion, we numismatists should be conservators of these little pieces of history under our care, not destroyers. 2. Retone it. Call it "artificial toning", call it "intentional toning", call it "accelerated aging" - it's all the same thing: expose the coin to a source of sulfur. Whether it's a kitchen window (preferably a kitchen where lots of garlic is used) or a rinse in sodium sulfide solution, the aim is to make the coin look uncleaned. It won't actually be "dis-cleaned", of course - the damage is still there, underneath the new toning, and an expert could probably spot it. The damage will also reappear if a future owner decides to dip it. I personally wouldn't recommend retoning, for the same reason as I said in #1 (the deliberate exposure of a coin to an adverse chemical environment) and the deceptive nature of re-toning. Personally, I keep cleaned coins as-is, preserving them from further damage just as if it weren't cleaned. For those who can't stand seeing coins that "look cleaned" in their collections, I'd suggest selling them and buying uncleaned replacements, rather than treating them. When selling a coin with old cleaning, say just that - "old cleaning". Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19949 Posts |
As already said....it depends on the harshness of the cleaning. Unfortuately, I own a few lightly cleaned coins and I hate them. LOL I've had them sitting on a window sill for about 2 years now and they are browning nicely (copper). The sad part is they are pretty tough coins in XF-AU condition. When I bought 3 of them from a dealer I knew they had been cleaned (bright red but with wear features), but the grade/price was too much to resist. I bought them with the intent of retoning them because they were simply dipped....which I think you can recover from. They are almost to the point now where it's very hard to tell they were ever dipped. Maybe another year or so and I'll add them to my collection as extras....labeled "cleaned and retoned".
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
539 Posts |
interesting discussion. thank you. I'll have to read more on this subject. I'm really thinking that a coin from say 1930 that was cleaned in 1967 is going to be really hard to tell it was cleaned. And this becomes especially true if you are buying it online with the seller having the ability to 'adjust' the picture to his/her liking. I know some of the coins I have gotten had to be cleaned some how in the past. Maybe not harshly but they look to darn good and well, clean!
Whether folks are doing this on purpose, knowing the coin was cleaned and just not saying so or they are just ignorant of the whole cleaning argument, I really don't know.
I recently picked up an inexpensive Austrian coin (pre WWII). It was a good price and it looked good. I got it and it had obviously been 'wiped down' with some kind of polishing cloth (maybe like the thing my wife uses for her silver jewelry). but the high points were all shiny. Again, it was a cheap coin but I just don't get why she (in this case) did that. the picture didn't show it all shiny. Whatever. Now I'm just ranting.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1554 Posts |
 Personally I feel all silver coins at one time or another have been cleaned. Just look at those "BLAST WHITE" coins you see advsertised with so called natural lustre? How on earth does anything stay blast white after 100 years. I remember how tarnished brand new coins became in the 1960's just a few months into circulation. So in my opinion whether a coin has been professionally dipped or harshly cleaned, there's nothing natural about it's look. Very few coins (choice) pieces have been untouched, that's just the nature of the Hobby! Glenn |
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Pillar of the Community
Philippines
1156 Posts |
The topic is very interesting, as mentioned, most darkside coins are cleaned, I can only say that is correct only for my place over here where it is a 70-30 proposition or 1 out of three coins. The point here being, that the coin is very very dirty, and as owner of the coin, the owner's preference shall be followed, and if the owner wants it cleaned (thats the 30%), so be it, regardless. and one will see cleaned coins in 90% of all coin stores here. But it's rapidly changing now, with awareness on the merits of original toned coins  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
I buy cleaned coins all the time. Also, have purchased polished coins that appear as if they went through a wax job for a car. In one instance that is what it was. At a flea market a dealer selling auto waxes was demonstrating with coins. I got one for experimenting.
With those I've place in jars with Laquer Thinners, then Alcohol, then distilled water. If Copper, eventually a minor dose of baking soda/water and then again, distilled water rinses.
Regardless, over the years they all end up on a kitchen window sill. Usually on a small piece of normal, everyday piece of a pine 2x4. Turned over every month or so. Presently I now have several such Cents and a Indian Head Hickel there. All are well beginning to look like normal coins.
NO, they will always be considered cleaned. However, I've shown some to dealers I know with many years of experience and in some instances they could not tell they were cleaned.
There is a few problems with this method. Not all kitchens are used the same. Not all windows face the same way. Not all people cook the same. Not all people cook the same types of foods. AND you must be patient.
For me it has been working fantastically for many years.
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Valued Member
Canada
307 Posts |
maybe I am too laid back but this is my thought
so you bought or own a cleaned coin....I would assume you bought it knowing it was cleaned and you were happy with the deal....I have a few like this and I use them at this point as fillers but come time to upgrade I will (it is the moral thing to do) let the buyer know that it is cleaned.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3234 Posts |
Quote:
I've heard that you can put a cleaned coin in a window sill and it will re-tone. Never tried it and never seen it done but if you want to give it a try go for it. What can it hurt? I'd imagine it would take quite some time to look near normal again, if ever. That only works if the coin was not improperly cleaned. If you have an overdipped out Morgan dollar, like I have, and put it in the window, like I've done for about 2 years with the same coin, you now have an improperly cleaned coin with some (possibly not-so-nice) toning over the surfaces. It's obvious to anyone who's familiar with cleaned coins that the retoned coin was cleaned. I can still probably only sell my coin for melt. Now, if the coin was lightly cleaned (i.e. not glossy or hairlined) then some retoning couldn't hurt. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3234 Posts |
Another thought on this. I've had an interesting discussion with a fellow member on this very topic when it comes to copper nickel coins. If you have a coin that's below AU (and even many AU coins) and it is basically white...it has been cleaned. There's no way (okay I'm going on a ledge here, but I'll stick to my guns on this) that an XF coin is not going to have any dirt on it...period. If it's "white", at a minimum it's been soap and watered. Many times, a quick dip can do this as well. It doesn't make the coin bad, but it does kill the originality of the piece.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:That only works if the coin was not improperly cleaned. If you have an overdipped out Morgan dollar, like I have, and put it in the window, like I've done for about 2 years with the same coin, you now have an improperly cleaned coin with some (possibly not-so-nice) toning over the surfaces. It's obvious to anyone who's familiar with cleaned coins that the retoned coin was cleaned. I can still probably only sell my coin for melt. As I mentioned not all window sill systems could possibly give the same results to even the same coins. Remember all the massive possibilities that arise. For example how often do you open that window? What direction does it face? What climate do you live in? What do you cook in that room and how often? What is the temperature and humidity on that window sill? See what I mean? Many, many possible differences in each attempt. On all the cleaned coins I've tried this with I usually, not always, try to remove any possible cleaning or polishing agents done by others prior to my window sill adventures. AND I usually get many different results to this. For example I've been given a Indian Head Nickel that for some reason was almost black. I have now spent many months attempting to get that black color off with absolutely no results. Even mild acids haven't worked and it too is now on that window with many other coins. As I mentioned some, not all, have actually passed the eyes of some rather professional dealers as a NOT cleaned coin. |
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New Member
United States
33 Posts |
I've personally tried the window experiment on some low value silver coins but all it did was give the coins a grayish sunburned color which wasn't too appealing. Nowadays if I don't like the coin I just get rid of it, the old "my loss your gain" thing.
I do have a nice coin that someone took a marker to the reverse and made two short lines. I tried the acetone bath but that didnt remove them. Does anyone have any advce on how to safely remove marker stains from a silver coin without losing its tone?
Edited by 8 RΕL
08/11/2010 9:59 pm
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Valued Member
United States
397 Posts |
I haven't tried this on a coin, but it should work - although I don't know what the result to the coin would be.
I know that if someone uses a permanent marker on a white board, the way to remove it is to go over it with a dry erase marker. When you erase the dry erease mark - the permanent mark comes up as well.
Provided the permanent mark is on a flat field I don't see why this wouldn't work. But you would need to erase with something soft enough that it doesn't leave hairlines.
I'm not sure I would try this on anything other than junk silver though. I'm just throwing the idea out there.
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Replies: 25 / Views: 13,958 |
Posted 06/08/2010 5:54 pm
