VAM_it

I have a sneaking suspicion that the answers to those questions might lie in the reasons for the rush job on the hubs and the die preparation, the inability to basin the dies given the depth of intaglio devices, the annealing of the dies, the chaos of everything associated with a new coin and its design..... I kinda doubt that the 7/8TF came into being strictly because the number of feathers needed to be changed.... I rather think that impending doom was the main concern for the changeover.... Despite whatever chips or cracks or anything else occurred on the obverses, I think that the keys to determining the order in which these obverses were paired to the A1c reverse are to be found on the reverse.... I really don't think that very many of these obverses lasted in the press an hour, and some only a couple of minutes.

A very important "vamming technique"
here's the last few shots that should leave no doubt.. rare/common/commonly rare Anna....

I really do not think that it would be unrealistic to imagine that there were a lot more 8TF dies (both obv & rev) used than anyone today might think.... I believe that some dies broke on first strike, and that several others never coined a coin... There might be a few that coined only a few coins.... I would not be at all surprised to see a new 8TF die pairing in the next 10-20 years come out of an old type set.... I also might not consider your B1 set complete for eternity for the same reason Bryan.... just keep your eyes open for that 87 or 88....

Since this is a teaching and learning thread, let me ask a few questions that occurred to me over a year and a half ago, but were scoffed at as these things did not fit the mold of accepted knowledge.

Are 8TF coins any different than other years with regard to attribution ? Do different rules apply? Can some things be taken for granted when attributing 8TF?

What sorts of things actually indicate and determine die progression?

How can we tell if a die has been polished or not?

On some MS coins, with extreme magnification, a directional 'grain' can be seen in the coin's texture; what is that?

Edited to add:

Let me add a couple more while I am at it:

Why is it unimportant to understand the processes and machines that were used to create the coins? Is it enough to see the product, and draw conclusions from that alone? Is this what is referred to as numismatic forensics, and knowledge is king?

Why is the history, the people and events that surround the creation of these coins seemingly irrelevant to what can now be looked at through a microscope? Is it enough to hold these bones in your hand and call it history? Do not these people and events have a direct relationship and bearing on the cracks on the coin?

Is it recommended that learning attribution be the first thing to be tackled and then work backwards form there, rather like learning how to read and write, without regard to what the words actually mean?

I kinda doubt that we'll get any other replies on any of those questions Gene, other than possibly from Dave.... I don't remember if you have ever been in the military Gene, but I have known several guys who were, and I remember hearing one phrase from nearly all of them ("Hurry up and wait").... That is exactly what the mint was doing in late February of 1878..... All of the questions that I asked in my last post tie together, and to me have a direct effect on vamming as I see it, but maybe this should all be left to some other thread at some other time, as it is in direct opposition to what you are trying to do here on this thread..... I'll drop it all for now, and allow you to continue...

ZEE states, " What sorts of things actually indicate and determine die progression?


I am going to attempt an answer to this, I am doing and have been so studying the progression of die failure.

I can say some things that indicate and determine die progression are, 1- the simple fact things wear and the tell all signs are there, if you know what to look for,Fatigue such as trailing letters, not the crisp original looking finished product we have all come to know, a crisp, luster filled cartwheel looking brilliant fully struck coin. The relief looks dull and life less over time, the fields also take on a dull looking finish, blurry and not as crisp a strike as it once was.

Another indication is the die cracks which start as a small crack in a certain spot, and you can actually see ( if you locate another coin) the progression "walking" and like water, it seeks it's own path, which I feel the first sign of failure on a die is a crack and it will, if caught in time, be removed from the coining process, polished, with finer and finer grit till it is ready to be rebasined and once cooled, placed back into production, and the process begins again. If not caught, the die will start a weakening that will not ever be the same till it explodes.
I feel, like welding, a person can have something welded, and if it is going to break again, and it usually does, it will NOT be in the EXACT same place, right next to it YES, and will again, seek it's path and left untouched, will become like a 1921 Morgan and have some very sweet, perimeter cracks and actually break the die apart, eventually.

Another factor or sign would be something like a die chip, a small piece of the die breaks either away or stays in place, these are easily seen as a jaggered line, which by no means is going to be straight and like the water, it too seeks it's own path which is more than likely from the pressure from the coining press, pounding away at the coins and actually assisting the die in the breaks walking around the die till either it is again, removed and repaired or left be, it would actually explode and look like a disaster for a coin.I believe the new B1 Reverse coin, of Kenneth's, AKA Bryan, actually has the look of a coins die that exploded either on his coin, or NOT long after, check out his still posted pictures, see the fields all banged up and that coin is a DPL finish on the coin, so the marks ALL around the coin are not from circulating, but, IMO, from the die's ultimate failure. I also enjoy following the breaks/cracks progression on a certain series of coin, you can see the breaks leading to Retained Cuds, blobs of metal forced into an area which use to be part of the die with a design feature on it or just watch as the breaks progress ALL AROUND THE COIN TILL.........

There are even more ways I am sure, for now, I need to stop, toooo much looking into the microscope and reading , I am drained........


**** Gene, a wonderful idea, I like the way you think, great insight.......

wonderful insight..and that is what Vamming is all about....one must consider....It's a very deep subject. and while we seek an understanding on basic terms... its not understood on basic terms...there are too many variables, I think I could do better at poker stars........While this is a learning thread... and so it applies to all of us...I must imply, not to delve father that the original thread of VAM-IT...SO we don't split, but also INCLUDE, many of such questions...

SO MY next VAM-IT is this....